Self defeating

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Deleting this

Clearly too many people here are NT and just don't get it.

Last edited by tudorose on 24 Jun 2009, 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

*Comforts* Some HFA kids are just social morons and your kid sounds like one of them. It seems he just doesn't understand proper behavior.

Welcome to WP and I hope things improve.

I can't help wondering if you've expected too much. A lot of things we consider basic are actually beyond the ability of HFA. Have you tried to get inside his head, to really understand how he might see things? Or have you mostly assumed that certain things he ought to be capable of and, thus, expected him to do them? Which would, essentially, have created a no-win situation on both sides. It's a lot more than abstract thinking that AS and HFA kids have touble with; most of us here will concede that it is the mundane everyday details of life that seem to be the most frustrating. I have no idea why, but they just don't get it. You can't will them to get it, you can't order them to, you can't badger them into it. They know intellectually they should get it, but somehow they still don't. I see that battle going on inside my son constantly. Push too hard and the child gives up, which is exactly what it sounds like your child did. He doesn't truly understand the expectations or how to comply with them and, so, he has given up. You really leave him to his own meals? I honestly cannot imagine. That seems so far beyond what one could expect from a HFA child, teen or not.

I know I"m coming at you rather strongly, and I wish I had a gentler way to put it, but you are both running out of time and I truly believe that you need to turn your thinking. Our kids take much, MUCH longer to grow up than "normal" kids, and many skills may never be acquired. It isn't their fault, and it isn't our fault; it just is. You have to understand that from the get go if you want to have any hope, any hope at all, of doing right by your child. I know its difficult, but its essential. Please try.

And, yes, in answer to your question about being self-defeating, definitely, its part of the AS. Its not that they want to be self-defeating, but more that they see one road, one road only, and if that road doesn't work out they don't have any alternative and see no option but to give up. One of my biggest goals with my son - and with my lightly AS husband, actually - has been to teach him to see other roads and to learn how to switch onto them. It isn't natural at all. It is extremely hard for them, EXTREMELY. Your son, the first time he fails at something you've asked, decides he just can't do it. You yell; he gives up. Vicious cycle. To solve it, you first have to understand that he honestly doesn't think he can do it, and needs to be shown a new road. Does that make sense? Sigh. I just wish you both weren't so far down this path.

deleted

Last edited by tudorose on 24 Jun 2009, 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sounds like it's time for a trial period of living in an assisted living group home. Who knows, he might learn valuable life skills and discipline, and he'll have supportive staff members keeping him from harming himself.

My sons are self defeating, in that they often offend those that they need help from and will often make the same mistakes over and over and over. They are 9 now, I have no idea how this will be when they are 15.

But the OP made me so sad. Maybe you don't intend or realize this, but you sound so very negative towards your son. Is there anyway you can take a break? Get a holiday away or find some way of "recharging your batteries"? Then maybe you will be able to muster some optimism about who your son is and his future. It sounds like you've all been through a lot, but you are almost there. He'll soon be an adult and it sounds like he'll be able to live independently then. How can you make these last few years the happiest and most positive for all of you? If the rules aren't working, can the rules be changed? Your son sounds really capable. Could he sit down with you and formulate a new plan that he feels comfortable with? Can you put a lock on your door to create that private sanctuary for yourself that it sounds like you desperately need? (I don't know why the idea of doing this makes you want to leave home? It sounds like a good idea to me.) Are there more activities away from home that your son could participate in, giving you a break and him a chance to feel successful and engaged?

The behaviours listed do sound challenging from a housekeeping and hygiene POV. What answers do the psychs have about these hoarding behaviours? It just doesn't sound like defiance to me. I sounds like he needs help he isn't getting. Excluding him from family life by putting him in a tent or caravan sounds hurtful and humiliating. I realize you are at the end of your rope and am not trying to be harsh...I just feel sad for your son. I know what it feels like to be utterly overwhelmed by life, and have parents treating you like you're the enemy. It does sound like you're all caught in a vicious cycle where everyone loses. I really hope you can make some positive changes together.

I find the responses from people with AS to be a lot different to the parents of AS kids. If you have AS can you please tell me your opinion of the situation and if you have any ideas I'd be grateful. It's too hard to relax all the rules and let him have it all his way and do what he wants coz the other people in the house all have OCD and can't cope if he's running amok in everyone elses space.

don't know who you are but i feel bad for your son. u sound like a horrible parent. you've given up on your child and he's not even an adult yet. you know why your son acts the way he does? because you're an idiot. someone should take YOU away for child abuse. i cant believe someone would even consider locking their child out of the house, no matter how challenging their behaviors are. how do you think your son feels when you try to "give him away?" you should be a ashamed. do your son a favor and let him be with someone who REALLY cares.

How dare you Malya2006. What right do you have to write such an abusive message to someone you admit you don't know. You don't have a teenager yet so you don't have a clue and maybe before you judge me you need to get your head out of your @ss. You are a nasty horrible person and a big part of the reason why support groups don't work - because there's always some judgmental moron like you ready to have a go at anyone who doesn't do things your way.

Malya you clearly can't understand anything about what happens to people when they have NO SUPPORT FOR 15 YEARS.

Looking at some of your other posts if someone doesn't agree with your softly softly approach they must be an idiot. Your child is only 5 and you have support and therapy even if you don't like who provides it - but of course they're idiots coz you think they're trying to push him too hard.

When your child gets to 15 you might see that the softly softy approach doesn't always work when it comes to serious issues like trying to teach your child to be a law abiding citizen so he doesn't end up in prison. These are some of the issues we have dealt with and succeeded with yet you call me an idiot. My son doesn't steal from shops anymore and he works in a shop now.

I try and assist my son as much as possible so he can cope later in life. I try to teach him the laws and the social skills he needs. I HAVE DONE THIS BY MYSELF FOR 15 YEARS.

So yeah all of you go ahead an criticise me. I'm trying to help my son. I'm trying to help him to evolve. I've got a lot of it right but things don't work at home and I am stressed and tired and burnt out. I'm trying to understand and trying to make things the best they can because I know he really wants things his way and I want him to be able to have that rather than always having to live under someone elses rules.

God only knows how some of you NT's can co-exist with Aspies on the one forum

Thanks to Gifted-Monster and Chizpurfle52595 for your help. I like to hear the thoughts of Aspies because you know how it is.

Sorry for calling you an "idiot." I still think you have already given up on your child. Of course you want your child to be law abiding and independent. Contrary to what you think, I am tough with my son, I don't allow him to hurt or offend others. However, things like throwing things in the trash or cleaning up after himself has to be taught. Sounds like your OCD is making you lose it with your son. You sound like you have some personal issues and combined with your son's issues, it has made you give up. I don't care if is 5 or 50, I would NEVER give up on him and THAT is what I'm criticizing. You say that he pees in bottles and goes in your room and look through your stuff. To me, that is minor stuff, if he doesn't hit you or hit himself, then all that can be adjusted. It just sounds like personally you have issues with your things being touched. I can GUARANTEE you and you can quote me on this, when my son is 15, he will go through a lot issues and struggles with life and at home, I will be there every step of the way. It's not about "pushing" your son to be "normal" or to be a law abiding citizen, it's about being POSITIVE and making him WANT to do good things. It's about overlooking the small stuff and worrying about what is important. Going through people's stuff and being clean is important but you are probably making it such a big deal that he is rebelling. Again, sorry for calling you names, it was uncalled for, but you seriously need intervention for the whole family, it's not only his problem, look at yourself and the way you're dealing with this problem. I agree, not having any support from the beginning is unfortunate. Having services for my son since he was 4 has been a godsend. I truly appreciate the awareness and the interventions. If you have succeeded with your son and he has not stolen from shops, why are you giving up now?? I know you are tired, I know it's stressful but you can't give up. When I am stressed out and tired or depressed I remind myself that God sent my son to me to make ME a better person. He has made me more patient, understanding, and smarter. There isn't much wrong with my son, yes he doesn't understand social rules, yes he's rigid and repetitive but he's MINE and he can be taught. I was completely germ-phobic (still struggling with it), closed-minded to disabilities and my son has completely opened my eyes to another world. He puts life in perspective for me. Instead of making your son the enemy, get in his world, understand him, and then help him. You can not help or change him until you do this.

Last edited by malya2006 on 24 Jun 2009, 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

By the way, your comments about not considering the advice of NT's just shows you that you DON'T want to help your son because we DO have a lot of great advice. You just want someone to validate your feelings. Maybe the previous poster is right, maybe your son does need to be in assisted living because obviously you are not mentally capable of handling him. I bet if or when your son does go to a group home, you will still be the unhappy person you are. You sound like your life will be great if your son would leave your house, I would beg to differ. Also, just because someone is autistic doesn't mean they know the answers. Yes they can relate, but that doesn't give them all the right answers. As you notice, most OT's, ST's, PT's, special educators, social skill group coordinators are NT's!! ! My son goes to a social skills group with another HFA child. They try to force these two to be best friends yet they have no interest in each other because they are TOO a like.

To be honest, it is my experience that those with AS are the most likely to jump right out and tell a parent they've got it all wrong, are bad parents, etc. But I have to agree that once everyone can get past the anger and frustration, they are the ones who will offer the most useful advice.

I am sorry I came out so harshly, it isn't usually my style, but it is difficult to hear a parent say they are fed up and actually talk about giving up. Of course you want to help your son, but that isn't what your first post said.

Clearly, you need a break. A chance to gain a different perspective because, without assigning fault to anyone, you know things aren't working the best they can right now, and you don't want to be on this path.

I still suggest that he is simply not capable of doing what you believe he is capable of. Otherwise, honestly, why would he not do it? Most AS don't carry hidden agendas. The ones who do admit to doing things just to annoy their parents will say they have been horribly provoked and are just fighting back - if that isn't who you are, and I preferred not to jump to that conclusion, then the simple truth is that your son can't do what you consider him able to.

So how do you balance that out with your own needs? And, yes, your needs are important, but you need to understand then that the needs are yours, and NOT the result of a fault in him. When you rephrase the conversation in that direction, you are likely to get more productive answers.

I can't really engage in this thread in detail right now because we're out on family vacation and I owe it my kids to spend some quality time with them, and not my computer. But I will warn EVERYONE posting here to NOT ATTACK individuals or CALL NAMES. Some of the comments above are unacceptable under the rules of Wrong Planet, and I am only allowing them to stand because they have already been discussed and apologized for.

Topics like this will do get heated here. But if everyone can set aside their frustration and try to get at what might actually improve things for this family, then real progress can be made. I hope everyone - all opinions - will try.

As a moderator here, I have to disagree. Most of the posters and readers on this forum are AS. If those with AS are not replying, then either they don't feel they can help, or they don't feel they can respond with enough tact to be helpful. I understand you are frustrated, but you are not, in any forum, always going to hear what you want to hear. And to listen is important. It runs both ways.

I am so sorry to know that you've had to go this on your own all these years. I am sure that has been really difficult, horribly difficult, and no doubt even more so because of your own issues and needs, as you've posted to. But your difficulties are not the fault of those on this forum who have found support and have found a way to enjoy a positive life with their children. They may not be in exactly the same boat, but that does not mean they have nothing meaningful to contribute. I think you make a mistake to write it all off so quickly.

If I recall, Annotated Alice is an AS parent herself. Just FYI. I'm a bit of both, but consider myself more NT.

I hope you can find the solutions you seek. Everyone here cares. Sometimes that is why we post without tact; sometimes it just seems to be what is needed. But it's hard to know; it's words on a screen and instinct. I was glad you clarified many things after my first response. If you can keep that patience with everyone, you will get some good advice.

I know I have issues myself and so do the rest of the family. Although I say I give up I never do which is why I'm here. Sometimes I need to vent because I get frustrated.

Sorry about the NT comment. I have a lot of trouble understanding NTs. I have ADHD, OCD and enough Asperger tendencies for my psychiatrist to feel the need to tell my former employer about (when I was on workers comp for PTSD). So yeah I know I have a lot of issues. My daughter has ADHD and OCD and my husband is OCD which makes it really hard at home. One person sets another person off and then everything feels like it falls apart. My son's lack of hygeine really sets off my husband's and daughters OCD. She then starts washing her hands until they bleed and then it feels like we are all drowning in negative feelings.

I know if he went to a group home I'd be unhappy. I just really want things to work at home. We've got all the other stuff right except for life at home which frankly I find devastating and I try not to think about it too much coz then I want to cry and it's not like I can talk to anyone because no-one understands to I keep it to myself and put on a brave face every day.

My mother is an undiagnosed autistic (I don't see her anymore because she married a paedophile and didn't tell me coz she wanted to prove he was rehabilitated by exposing him to my kids). She didn't discipline me enough and the result was that everyone hated me because I didn't know how to behave. I have no relationship with my sisters because of it. I was the brat allowed to get away with everything. This has not helped me as an adult and I found myself growing up in the workforce which was humiliating. I wanted to save my kids from that so I have always tried to train and let them know what it acceptable because I'd hate for them to go through what I went through.

I know his behaviour isn't personal and that the reason for a lot of it is that the thought does not occur to him. I do get mad coz I know he can't understand and I don't expect him to but I just want him to do as he's told. There are a lot of rules and laws in society that don't make any sense and I worry that if he doesn't obey a law because he doesn't understand or agree with it that he'll get into serious trouble.

I probably shouldn't have said I had given up. I don't know how to give up. Maybe if I could give up I'd be able to let some of the behaviours go.

I know everyone here does care otherwise you wouldn't be here.

Hello,

I'm sorry that I didnt reply to this sooner, but I assumed that it was more of a self-pity rant then actually asking for advice. And generally responding to rants like these doesnt actually help anything. In the future, if you want more specific advice then it may be a good idea to state clearly what the problem is, how you have attempted to solve it in the past, what has and hasn't worked, etc. It also helps to break down these into individual threads for each problem so they can be commented on separately.

I think that you might want to try working on things 1 at a time. When you try to fix everything at once then you will inevitably be overwhelmed and have problems. Perhaps you could start by limiting interactions between your family members? For starters, have everybody in the family have their own space (bedroom most reasonably). And make a rule that nobody can go into other people's spaces. That should help reduce some of the anxiety. I would then make a list of things which you need to work on in order of necessity. For example, at 15, learning how to balance a check book or organize bills is not a high priority. He has a minimum of 3 years before he needs to worry about that. However, learning basic hygiene in order to keep things sanitary is probably higher on the list.

Once you have a list, go through things one at a time. You dont need to have it down completely 100% before you move on to the next item, but try not to be working on too many things at once. Also, while this may not be what you want to hear, it may be of use to take a semester or 2 off school to work on these things. School is often a vary stressful environment, and can limit the amount of energy anybody has to learn new things. If you take your son out of school for a little while and work with him on these things he may make a great deal more progress. Of course he would graduate a bit later, but there are far worse things in life then graduating at age 19. I doubt your son entering the work force a year late will have a significant impact on his long term career. But the year he spends learning how to interact with the world may have a huge benefit.

There are also expectations that you may want to change. I really dont know all that you expect of your son, but many people seem to overestimate the social skills necessary to have a successful life. I work in engineering, and I estimate that I spend about 20 minutes per week total being sociable (mostly before meetings where you just sort of talk amongst yourselves). This can simply be covered by knowing a few good jokes and smiling at people when they are talking. I am known as being rather quiet in my work place, but there are worse things then that in life.

If you want more practical advice about specific issues, then I suggest you post a thread about the specific issue you are working on, giving as much background information, and details as possible.

It is rather hard to give helpful advice when your thread basically just said 'everything is wrong, why wont it work, I'm giving up'.

Thankyou Tracker. You have a lot of good advice.

Yes you are right - one issue per thread is the right way to do it.

You are also right in that I was not clear at all in what I was asking / saying (sorry it's an ADHD thing). I will try to be more clear and direct in future.