Devastated - please help!
10 Jul 2011, 5:40 pm
No its not the lack of agreement that makes me think you haven't paid attention to what people are saying.
Its your continued reference to how self-centered he is. He is 6 but if you did actually read Tony Attwood's book as you said you did you would understand that he has the emotional maturity of a 4 yo at best. Most 4 yo children are not very good at sharing toys and they are still in the self-centered stage of development. Him hitting the other child over the head with a toy is a behavior that most preschool teachers see on a regular basis. It takes concerted effort on the part of parents, therapists and teachers to bring the ASD child's social and emotional maturity up the the level of his or her age peers.
Its your statement about him "torturing himself and those around him" What people here are trying to tell you is that he is NOT doing these things on purpose. Aspies need things explicitly taught to them that NT people pick up through casual observation. Again, it is not lowering your expectations that you must explicitly explain to him how he should act in various situations. And that you may need to make that explanation repeatedly before he really gets it.
Its comments like this "Yet nobody - ABSOLUTELY NOBODY - can come up with objective, alternative methods that would be realistic in real life and that would NOT ultimately translate into "go with the flow that your child demands, whenever he demands it, however he demands it".
On this forum we discuss setting clear rules that the child understands and setting clear consequences for breaking those rules and following through on the rules consistently. Its just that you don't make rules like - you are going to wear the socks I picked out for you even though they cause you pain. That is a fight not worth fighting. You DO make rules like - you will not leave the yard without an adult with you and you make the consequence clear and as closely related to the infraction as possible. What exactly those rules are for your family is entirely based on what works for you. NO ONE here is advocating that you give in to every demand your child makes.
10 Jul 2011, 6:48 pm
Two years since diagnosis I still have good days where I question the diagnosis, on bad days I wonder if my daughter will end up institutionalized. We all have good days and bad days. As others were saying you love your child and you accept their differences because of that love. As a parent, what is most important is finding out what IS best for your child. A lot of us believe that acceptance of diversity in the world would go a long way to help our kids feel less like outcasts. We don't spend all of our effort on trying to mold them into "typical" kids because we have learned that is not the best use of our efforts. We embrace their talents, endure their overstimulations, ease their humiliations, model patience and social skills, but above all we love them for who they are.
What is really hard in the beginning is doing an autopsy on every extreme event and like a detective try to find out what the triggers are-what you could have done differently?, what was the same today as it was when the last meltdown occurred? That was really the hardest part because it is not always obvious but once you start to figure things out you and your family will be much happier and the bad days will be fewer.
The behaviors that you don't like about your son are probably due to his different physiological makeup. Just like a parapalegic, you don't chastise them for not being able to walk. You lessen their difficulty-you make ramps or lower counters, or find ways to get around their limitations. Same with a child with Autism-you don't chastise them when their brains get overloaded-you find ways to adapt their surroundings to prevent that overload. You remind them that they're not bad because of those times and you remind them of all that is good about them so they don't begin to think they are bad or broken.
10 Jul 2011, 7:12 pm
goodolddays wrote:
Bombaloo wrote:
goodolddays
What I think you have failed to absorb through all of this is that many people here REALLY understand the feelings you have expressed. Many of us have expressed the difficulty and pain we felt when we discovered our child's diagnosis. We also have listened to the other's here that came before us and have gone through the same experience. You have spent so much time here "responding" to the comments that have been made that it leaves me wondering if you actually internalized ANY of the excellent advice that you have been given. Your child is different, he is not ret*d. Yes he is most likely behind his age peers right now in developing emotionally and socially. You need to CHANGE your expectations for him not LOWER those expectations. There is a HUGE difference. If a child with ASD is overly-sensitive to loud noises and is overwhelmed in crowded places, you don't expect them to have fun at a parade or a carnival. That is not LOWERING your expectations, it is just changing them.
I hope you will spend at least half as much time seriously considering some of the posts people have taken the time to write as you have expounding upon the significance of your "cross-cultural" upbringing. Your son's well-being is up to you. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and insist that if you treat him any differently than you would treat an NT child is just giving in to his demands then he is going to end up hating you. Ask many of the adult members here who's parents refused to recognize that they were different and you will find that many of them have terrible relationships with their parents if they have any relationship at all. You need to recognize that you truly are in denial. You are so in denial that you are in denial about being in denial. Get help.
What I think you have failed to absorb through all of this is that many people here REALLY understand the feelings you have expressed. Many of us have expressed the difficulty and pain we felt when we discovered our child's diagnosis. We also have listened to the other's here that came before us and have gone through the same experience. You have spent so much time here "responding" to the comments that have been made that it leaves me wondering if you actually internalized ANY of the excellent advice that you have been given. Your child is different, he is not ret*d. Yes he is most likely behind his age peers right now in developing emotionally and socially. You need to CHANGE your expectations for him not LOWER those expectations. There is a HUGE difference. If a child with ASD is overly-sensitive to loud noises and is overwhelmed in crowded places, you don't expect them to have fun at a parade or a carnival. That is not LOWERING your expectations, it is just changing them.
I hope you will spend at least half as much time seriously considering some of the posts people have taken the time to write as you have expounding upon the significance of your "cross-cultural" upbringing. Your son's well-being is up to you. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and insist that if you treat him any differently than you would treat an NT child is just giving in to his demands then he is going to end up hating you. Ask many of the adult members here who's parents refused to recognize that they were different and you will find that many of them have terrible relationships with their parents if they have any relationship at all. You need to recognize that you truly are in denial. You are so in denial that you are in denial about being in denial. Get help.
Not expecting a child to enjoy a noisy carnival is not the same thing as not expecting them to learn basic rules of social interaction. Or finish school. Or hold down a job.
Carnivals or other noisy situations can be avoided without any repercussions. People have a funny way of not being as easily "avoidable". My point is really that simple: you need to learn now to deal with people. Not "adore" people or seek social/large group situations. But "deal" with them - AS or NOT.
I will never remove this expectation for my child, regardless of who is saying what. That would mean disabling him even more than he is already disabled by nature.
Finally, yes - I did read all posts and have processed all the advice. What makes you think I didn't?
Not agreeing with every line?
I think this one of the complexities though of having the disorder and label and real life. Lots of people are actually not good at dealing with people in society-they may not have the barriers of AS to overcome but for a variety of reasons they are simply not good at it...in my experience most of them end up in HR positions but that's a different debate.
It is unavoidable-you can't live life without interacting but everybody's life has barriers, failures and issues. Your son cannot be perfect whether he is NT or AS and you need to realise whilst you may want to support him and allow him to interact that is not the same as where he may end up at any stage of development in terms of how he feels, he has a right to decide certain things.
Another complexity is what we want for our children and how what they do has a bearing on our happiness...that's not really their fault but they have a lifetime of having to deal with that too.....
We can't predict where our children will be in 10 years time but I don't think the label should define every aspect of their being and if the barriers they face are large then as parents we need to do our best to support them and live as best we can. Because it has to be about living the best lives we can in the context of where we are......it strikes me you have lost sight of the fact that your life hasn't suddenly changed but rather your perspective of what you thought it was has changed. If you really think about it wasting a lot of time and energy fighting over definitions and expectations is pointless...
10 Jul 2011, 9:03 pm
goodolddays wrote:
I was not aware of that. I was also not aware that on this forum you can only say things that are conventionally approved by the autistic community and that sound socially acceptable in the ears of a well-defined autistic community.
I was not even aware that a specific "autistic"' community exists. Being new to this, I thought this was a forum where various people, with various worldviews, whose lives have been touched by this condition and who want to learn to live on this Planet they were born on (right or wrong) - can come to ask for help, opinions, clarifications, offer details so they can get accurate feedback and understand what the H is going on. Funnily enough, I am starting to get there.
Actually you can say whatever you want as long as it does not appear to the moderators to violate the terms of the forum, and they tend to be rather lenient. As all public forums, however, you will find people have varying opinions and eventually everyone is going to end up offending someone.
However, it is clear to me now that this is not indeed the place to ask more than conventionally approved questions and be happy with conventionally approved answers. I found Another Planet. The other "wrong one" - exactly as the title implies.
One that seems to be as conventional, rigid, judgmental and narrow-minded as the NT world is accused of being.
I was not even aware that a specific "autistic"' community exists. Being new to this, I thought this was a forum where various people, with various worldviews, whose lives have been touched by this condition and who want to learn to live on this Planet they were born on (right or wrong) - can come to ask for help, opinions, clarifications, offer details so they can get accurate feedback and understand what the H is going on. Funnily enough, I am starting to get there.
Actually you can say whatever you want as long as it does not appear to the moderators to violate the terms of the forum, and they tend to be rather lenient. As all public forums, however, you will find people have varying opinions and eventually everyone is going to end up offending someone.
However, it is clear to me now that this is not indeed the place to ask more than conventionally approved questions and be happy with conventionally approved answers. I found Another Planet. The other "wrong one" - exactly as the title implies.
One that seems to be as conventional, rigid, judgmental and narrow-minded as the NT world is accused of being.
goodolddays wrote:
By the way - there is no such thing as an NT world. There is only THE WORLD.
The fact that people here seem to have gathered to form a "world of their own" and legitimize the idea that the way they are is perfectly fine and that they do not need to learn how to adapt to the realities of the REAL Planet...it is quite scary and disturbing to me.
The fact that people here seem to have gathered to form a "world of their own" and legitimize the idea that the way they are is perfectly fine and that they do not need to learn how to adapt to the realities of the REAL Planet...it is quite scary and disturbing to me.
I think this is a misconception you have that we feel we do not need to learn how to adopt to the realities of the real world. My life has been one of diplomacy and continually being proactive in learning the ways of your world, or "the real world" as you like to put it, and I feel I make more of an effort at learning about and understanding others than they do me, or even each other.
goodolddays wrote:
I may be wrong. And again, this may be because of cultural difference, and because of what I witnessed in the society I grew up in. If that is the case, I apologize for having stirred muddy waters and will leave the forum - thanking everyone again for the time they took to write.
I do hope you decide to stay. What culture did you grow up in?
goodolddays wrote:
I will just add here one last point of view, only to clarify where I am coming from and why I have problems accepting all this "we are a different Planet and we're fine the way we are" saga.
Like everyone else, in some instances we are fine the way we are, and in some instances we are not. Some of those instances, we can change, and some of them, we cannot. I pass fairly well as NT now that I'm older and have put in the effort that I have, however you must realize the differences in my brain that cause AS still exist, and my thought process is likely different than yours in a specific way because of it. It's impossible to change this, and there are things about your son that you will not be able to change, and attempting to do so will adversely affected him.
Here is an example. My roommate has PDD-NOS. He's not very verbally articulate and occasionally this frustrates me because he can't really have what most of us would call an in depth conversation. If I attempt to force him to explain something in more detail, he will give a long, complex monologue where he essentially repeats himself multiple times in various different ways and most of what he says still manages to be ambiguous, and by the end of it, he's flustered.
I can't have fulfilling conversations with my roommate and I accept that no matter how much I try to converse with him, this won't change. After many attempts and much probing, I've come to realize that he is just not capable of the level of conversation that I would like him to be, and I don't hold that against him.
goodolddays wrote:
I grew up in place where I never knew of ANYBODY, EVER behaving and living their lives in ways that many ASD people are now trying to legitimize as a perfectly acceptable "alternative" lifestyle: no job, no friends, no ability to cooperate or communicate with anyone in real life, no significant other, asexuality, playing computer games or obsessing over some solitary hobby, living in a world far, far away - all while expecting family to accept them and be proud of them EXACTLY for the way they are, no behavioral modifications needed as that would mean trying to be someone they're not.
Most of the people I know offline, with AS have a job and many of those jobs are in fields such as programming and engineering, that require teamwork and communication skills.
In these environments it becomes rather easy for someone with AS to communicate. Everyone on the team has a job and it becomes a matter of communicating what one's needs are, and what obstacles one might be facing as far as completing the project.
If someone is asexual, doesn't have a partner, or chooses to spend their free time engaging in solitary hobbies, I don't see what the issue with that is as long as it doesn't bother them.
I still get the impression that you have this false idea of people with AS, that is not applicable to the group as a whole.
goodolddays wrote:
OK.
No one where I grew up has ever known an adult like that.
Not because autistic children (or children with a,b,c traits - per manual) were not born in my country.
I am sure quite a few were born this way. But the local society did not allow them to develop WITH their grain because they simply did not exist in adulthood. It forced them to develop AGAINST that grain. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing that this society had it right and this is how things should be done. I am just telling you what WAS: and take my word for it, this is how it was.
No one ever knew anybody who had no friend whatsoever, who could not have a job because of not being able to communicate with other people, who lived their lives locked in a room, in complete solitude, obsessing over a hobby (no computers available at the time) and pretending they are super happy just the way they are, being left at their own devices by their families under the guise of "acceptance". NO ONE.
And the reason why no one was like that is because the darn local society would give you so much grief over living your life this way and would apply so much pressure for you to change, that most people of that sort would have ended up with two options and two options only:
1) hang themselves
2) adapt and change to fit the world they were born in: with their grain or against their grain.
They may have only ended up with one close friend, a not-so-glorious job and a spouse who was not necessarily their perfect SOUL MATE; but they learned to live within the constraints of the world.
Somehow. Don't ask me how.
Given that the very few suicides I heard of growing up happened with people who had always had the most NT-like traits possible, it is clear to me that autistic-born people were not taking their own lives by succombing to the pressures of the "mean" local culture. They simply took option no 2.
Yes, AGAINST their grain - which, in time, became normality.
Would they have ended up with a happier life by being allowed to play with frogs in their rooms forever (or insert intense personal and solitary interest of choice) as opposed to having a friend, a spouse and a job - against their grain?
I don't know. Perhaps.
What I am trying to say is that this adaptation to an environment that EXPECTS everyone to fit certain basic molds DID HAPPEN. For better or for worse - but it happened. I saw it with my own eyes.
I am, of course, talking about a traditional, collective society that places strong pressures on the individual and DOES NOT accommodate all sorts of "diversity". Again, rightly or wrongly so.
Definitely not the kind of "diversity" like living in your own little world without what most people consider a FUNDAMENTAL aspect of being alive, aka being able to communicate and connect with a fellow human.
It is no coincidence that such children were allowed to develop at their own devices only in highly individualistic societies - but not in collective, traditional ones.
As for selfishness, real or apparent, neuorologically- or jerkishly-triggered: IT WAS NOT TOLERATED.
It was seen as a terrible character flaw. Period. No one was interested in HOW you acquired that selfishness or that, despite acting like a jerk, deep down you are not one because this is what is written in a book.
You acted selfish - you WERE selfish. And that was not good news.
No one where I grew up has ever known an adult like that.
Not because autistic children (or children with a,b,c traits - per manual) were not born in my country.
I am sure quite a few were born this way. But the local society did not allow them to develop WITH their grain because they simply did not exist in adulthood. It forced them to develop AGAINST that grain. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing that this society had it right and this is how things should be done. I am just telling you what WAS: and take my word for it, this is how it was.
No one ever knew anybody who had no friend whatsoever, who could not have a job because of not being able to communicate with other people, who lived their lives locked in a room, in complete solitude, obsessing over a hobby (no computers available at the time) and pretending they are super happy just the way they are, being left at their own devices by their families under the guise of "acceptance". NO ONE.
And the reason why no one was like that is because the darn local society would give you so much grief over living your life this way and would apply so much pressure for you to change, that most people of that sort would have ended up with two options and two options only:
1) hang themselves
2) adapt and change to fit the world they were born in: with their grain or against their grain.
They may have only ended up with one close friend, a not-so-glorious job and a spouse who was not necessarily their perfect SOUL MATE; but they learned to live within the constraints of the world.
Somehow. Don't ask me how.
Given that the very few suicides I heard of growing up happened with people who had always had the most NT-like traits possible, it is clear to me that autistic-born people were not taking their own lives by succombing to the pressures of the "mean" local culture. They simply took option no 2.
Yes, AGAINST their grain - which, in time, became normality.
Would they have ended up with a happier life by being allowed to play with frogs in their rooms forever (or insert intense personal and solitary interest of choice) as opposed to having a friend, a spouse and a job - against their grain?
I don't know. Perhaps.
What I am trying to say is that this adaptation to an environment that EXPECTS everyone to fit certain basic molds DID HAPPEN. For better or for worse - but it happened. I saw it with my own eyes.
I am, of course, talking about a traditional, collective society that places strong pressures on the individual and DOES NOT accommodate all sorts of "diversity". Again, rightly or wrongly so.
Definitely not the kind of "diversity" like living in your own little world without what most people consider a FUNDAMENTAL aspect of being alive, aka being able to communicate and connect with a fellow human.
It is no coincidence that such children were allowed to develop at their own devices only in highly individualistic societies - but not in collective, traditional ones.
As for selfishness, real or apparent, neuorologically- or jerkishly-triggered: IT WAS NOT TOLERATED.
It was seen as a terrible character flaw. Period. No one was interested in HOW you acquired that selfishness or that, despite acting like a jerk, deep down you are not one because this is what is written in a book.
You acted selfish - you WERE selfish. And that was not good news.
Again I don't know what society you grew up in, you mentioned collective so I assume some communist country and there may actually be certain aspects of a communist country which are more beneficial to people with AS. For example, it was much easier to get a job I imagine, whether you were strange or not. The collective atmosphere and lack material things probably better assimilated children with AS into group environments. When I was young I moved a lot and if there were children in the neighborhood they would come over and play with me because they were curious and playmates were valuable resources. At school, however, other children rarely approached me.
AS is actually still fairly rare, despite the rise in diagnoses (many of those diagnosed probably don't have it and have other problems).
Some of my family members on my mother's side of the family have HFA and in the 30's, 40's and 50's this wasn't really heard of. Children who were severely disabled were put in institutions and those who could not conform to society were usually considered bad and beaten and those people ended up on the fringes of society, frequently failing to meet their full potential and suffering from depression, or imprisoned as adults....do you want that for your son?
My great grandmother was a kindly soul and would identify those who actually had HFA by the phrase "Somethings not right with X" and she generally knew how to deal with them, and most of them became productive members of society.
goodolddays wrote:
At this moment I still don't know whether I myself ever had AS or not. If I did, that would still make me an AS because, according to the textbook, AS never goes away just like brown eyes will never turn blue.
I do know for sure that I was on a trajectory, for a long time in my life, that was extremely similar to many AS paths I have read about. I have described that path in a another thread where I was trying to receive feedback as to whether that was AS or not.
I eventually caught on that I was not going to live well in this world by pretending that the way I was living was still a perfectly legitimate lifestyle because it made ME happy. I had moments of intense happiness when I was indulging in that obsession I entertained for over 10 years. But I simply understood that the world was going to give me too much grief if I continued to live in my own little world, without a partner, clumsy in social situations, withdrawn, frustrated by social demands, etc.
I understood the social pressure and realized that my family was not going to "accept me just the way I was".
They would have never kicked me out but they would have never stopped giving me grief about who I was either.
The trick in such societies is that the option of separating yourself from your family for not accepting you just the way you are and just going to live on your own using credit - is not an option. As such, your family will always be there to give you grief.
So I slowly stepped out of my little world and became perfectly functional in the real one.
But then again, that might not have been AS. I will never know.
I do know for sure that I was on a trajectory, for a long time in my life, that was extremely similar to many AS paths I have read about. I have described that path in a another thread where I was trying to receive feedback as to whether that was AS or not.
I eventually caught on that I was not going to live well in this world by pretending that the way I was living was still a perfectly legitimate lifestyle because it made ME happy. I had moments of intense happiness when I was indulging in that obsession I entertained for over 10 years. But I simply understood that the world was going to give me too much grief if I continued to live in my own little world, without a partner, clumsy in social situations, withdrawn, frustrated by social demands, etc.
I understood the social pressure and realized that my family was not going to "accept me just the way I was".
They would have never kicked me out but they would have never stopped giving me grief about who I was either.
The trick in such societies is that the option of separating yourself from your family for not accepting you just the way you are and just going to live on your own using credit - is not an option. As such, your family will always be there to give you grief.
So I slowly stepped out of my little world and became perfectly functional in the real one.
But then again, that might not have been AS. I will never know.
Maybe you have AS, maybe you don't. I'm still confused as to why you think you need a significant other to lead a happy life though, and personally, I think you are making your son's diagnosis more difficult than it needs to be with all of these misconceptions you have.
Your son is different. Surely you can find something positive in that.
11 Jul 2011, 4:07 am
Bombaloo wrote:
No its not the lack of agreement that makes me think you haven't paid attention to what people are saying.
Its your continued reference to how self-centered he is. He is 6 but if you did actually read Tony Attwood's book as you said you did you would understand that he has the emotional maturity of a 4 yo at best. Most 4 yo children are not very good at sharing toys and they are still in the self-centered stage of development.
Its your continued reference to how self-centered he is. He is 6 but if you did actually read Tony Attwood's book as you said you did you would understand that he has the emotional maturity of a 4 yo at best. Most 4 yo children are not very good at sharing toys and they are still in the self-centered stage of development.
Fine so far. I understand that. What you and other people STILL FAIL to understand is that REGARDLESS of the reason why he does what he does, his actions STILL manifest themselves as sheer selfishness; which hurts those around him including his 3 yo sister who simply does not deserve this s**t.
You, Attwood and all the experts in the world can call it "retardation in emotional development" all you wish. How is this supposed to make things better? Yes, it sounds much more clinical than "being selfish"...but you know what?
At the end of the day, those actions still manifest themselves as selfish and mean and they STILL have a negative impact on those around him.
Bombaloo wrote:
Him hitting the other child over the head with a toy is a behavior that most preschool teachers see on a regular basis. It takes concerted effort on the part of parents, therapists and teachers to bring the ASD child's social and emotional maturity up the the level of his or her age peers. Its your statement about him "torturing himself and those around him" What people here are trying to tell you is that he is NOT doing these things on purpose.
So what if he doesn't do it "on purpose"? Can you define "on purpose"? I can tell you why he does it because unlike all the experts in the world, I have one advantage: being here and watching him in action.
He does it because he can't help himself. He is very impulsive and self-driven (yes, for neurological reasons) and he does not, I repeat: DOES NOT respond to any method for reducing such neurologically-driven behavior. He does understand that what he does is wrong. I repeat: HE DOES UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HE DOES IS WRONG. Many parts of his darn IQ test were in the gifted range. So I was hoping that I could at least count on the 1+1=2 part. Right.
My father told my son a little "fable" to offer him a realistic glance in the mirror. It was spot on for who he is.
"The forest was burning and animals were trying to escape. The scorpion asks the turtle:
- Please let me stay on your shell while you're crossing the lake and save me too!
The turtle responds:
- No, I can't do this because you will sting me.
The scorpion says:
- No, I will not sting you because if I do that, it means you will die, and if you die, I will drown, so I will die too! Trust me, I won't because it makes no sense for me to do that.
The turtle agrees this is true, so she takes the scorpion on her shell and off they go.
Half way, the scorpion stings the turtle. In deep pain, and about to die, the turtle cries:
- You stung me, you bastard!...How could you do that??! !! Now you too are going to die!!
To which the scorpion responds:
- Yes, but I just couldn't help myself".
This is who he is.
Bombaloo wrote:
Aspies need things explicitly taught to them that NT people pick up through casual observation. Again, it is not lowering your expectations that you must explicitly explain to him how he should act in various situations.
Bombaloo wrote:
...And that you may need to make that explanation repeatedly before he really gets it.
Really? Would you be able to provide a ballpark number that would indicate about how many times the most severe AS child needs to be provided with the logical explanation before he REALLY gets it? Just a number.
Also, keep in mind though that by the time the number acquires quite a few figures, the mental problems are not with those who fail to repeat the explanations that many times, but with those advocating that THIS is the right solution.
How dares ANYBODY on this forum to make assumptions about my failure to do the right thing, when nobody has the FAINTEST clue as to how many times my child has been instructed logically, how much emotional and intellectual effort has been expanded into helping him understand things based on HIS strengths, at his level, etc?
When everything you mention here...
Bombaloo wrote:
having things explicitly taught to him that NT people pick up through casual observation...
...and then so, so, so much more, all done step-by-step, methodically, logically, intellectually, sweetly, lovingly, with lots of lively examples ...has already been provided to him - not once, not twice, but hundreds of times by now...and when he still does not show any reduction in the unacceptable behavior, then here is what any normal human being will feel like saying:
[Deleted...Deleted...Wisely deleted...because ...oh, the trouble I would have been in by leaving it here]
Now take your tomatoes, throw them at me, make sure they splash all over...but the reality remains just one:
some children are what used to be called INCORRIGIBLE. It's that simple. This is why in the past they ended up locked away. And because community did matter at the time, the parent could only deal with SO MUCH shame and humiliation.
Bombaloo wrote:
Its comments like this "Yet nobody - ABSOLUTELY NOBODY - can come up with objective, alternative methods that would be realistic in real life and that would NOT ultimately translate into "go with the flow that your child demands, whenever he demands it, however he demands it".
I stand by this comment. As explained above.
Bombaloo wrote:
On this forum we discuss setting clear rules that the child understands and setting clear consequences for breaking those rules and following through on the rules consistently.
Fantastic.
This is what we've been doing for years following the wise and calm parenting techniques touted everywhere.
Guess what the result was? Horrible tantrums when said consequence was enforced. He wants to have his cake, eat it too AND smudge it all over our face, all in one".
Enforcing a consequence for us means making things 100 times worse and having the child repeat the behavior as many times as it takes, regardless of the consequence enforced. He is the kind of child that WILL NOT learn from any lesson.
Now, don't get me wrong and please don't start suspecting that we are just lazy parents who'd rather no go through the trouble of enforcing the consequence and prefer to just lament that "it won't work".
We do it anyway. And we get He** each time for enforcing it.
Of course, I read many times that AS children DO NOT learn from consequences, from having privileges removed, not even from serious physical punishment (as in "I will not do it anymore because I am afraid I will get the living spirit spanked out of me").
Then why do you bother with "discussing setting clear rules that the child understands and setting clear consequences for breaking those rules and following through on the rules consistently"??
Does it make for a clean, pristine discussion topic on the forum?
I read these methods work for NT children, that they DO NOT work for AS children - and I have had a 5 years long reality confirm that this is indeed true.
Or is it just fun talking about psychologically acceptable methods of disciplining? Are these supposed to make us feel better? That we are going about it the right way, with the seal of approval and all - despite not seeing any results?
But we keep on trying them - because this is what the textbook says we should do. Now THAT'S the definition of mental illness. Doing the same thing over and over again despite ample evidence that it does not work.
Gee...sometimes I wonder if there is ANYBODY normal left in this world.
Bombaloo wrote:
Its just that you don't make rules like - you are going to wear the socks I picked out for you even though they cause you pain.
That is a fight not worth fighting.
That is a fight not worth fighting.
I find it disappointing and even insulting to think that I came across as someone who may not have been able to process that such battles are not only NOT WORTH fighting, but that the parent would be a complete idiot for insisting the child wears a sock that causes him pain!
My Lord! My battles and problems are so far away from what you are saying here that I need to conclude we are simply not understanding each other.
11 Jul 2011, 6:46 am
Assuming at this point this isn't a Troll thread, let me just give some input in good faith.
goodolddays wrote:
[You, Attwood and all the experts in the world can call it "retardation in emotional development" all you wish. How is this supposed to make things better? Yes, it sounds much more clinical than "being selfish"...but you know what?
At the end of the day, those actions still manifest themselves as selfish and mean and they STILL have a negative impact on those around him.
...and then so, so, so much more, all done step-by-step, methodically, logically, intellectually, sweetly, lovingly, with lots of lively examples ...has already been provided to him - not once, not twice, but hundreds of times by now...and when he still does not show any reduction in the unacceptable behavior, then here is what any normal human being will feel like saying:
[Deleted...Deleted...Wisely deleted...because ...oh, the trouble I would have been in by leaving it here]
Now take your tomatoes, throw them at me, make sure they splash all over...but the reality remains just one:
some children are what used to be called INCORRIGIBLE. It's that simple. This is why in the past they ended up locked away. And because community did matter at the time, the parent could only deal with SO MUCH shame and humiliation.
I find it disappointing and even insulting to think that I came across as someone who may not have been able to process that such battles are not only NOT WORTH fighting, but that the parent would be a complete idiot for insisting the child wears a sock that causes him pain!
My Lord! My battles and problems are so far away from what you are saying here that I need to conclude we are simply not understanding each other.
At the end of the day, those actions still manifest themselves as selfish and mean and they STILL have a negative impact on those around him.
...and then so, so, so much more, all done step-by-step, methodically, logically, intellectually, sweetly, lovingly, with lots of lively examples ...has already been provided to him - not once, not twice, but hundreds of times by now...and when he still does not show any reduction in the unacceptable behavior, then here is what any normal human being will feel like saying:
[Deleted...Deleted...Wisely deleted...because ...oh, the trouble I would have been in by leaving it here]
Now take your tomatoes, throw them at me, make sure they splash all over...but the reality remains just one:
some children are what used to be called INCORRIGIBLE. It's that simple. This is why in the past they ended up locked away. And because community did matter at the time, the parent could only deal with SO MUCH shame and humiliation.
I find it disappointing and even insulting to think that I came across as someone who may not have been able to process that such battles are not only NOT WORTH fighting, but that the parent would be a complete idiot for insisting the child wears a sock that causes him pain!
My Lord! My battles and problems are so far away from what you are saying here that I need to conclude we are simply not understanding each other.
Honestly, you said your son had ADHD earlier. I really think that this is likely the problem more than the AS.
I know OP comes from an unspecified country that sees introversion as some kind of perverted nonsense, but based on this last post these don't sound like AS symptoms and I don't really feel qualified to offer advice.
Just to be sure though, I would like to reiterate the following:
I would recommend asking whether or not the misbehavior can be attributed to sensory issues or 'selfish' issues. If a kid with as does something random out of nowhere and can't explain why, it's likely a sensory issue rather than just being 'incorrigible'. If it's a selfish issue, just be clear that there is a clear definition of My stuff/Your stuff. As a child I thought in very black/white terms so the whole idea of sharing/community/public property was completely lost on me.
If you explain and your child isn't understanding, make sure you are using the most basic, black and white, step by step terms available. I seem smart, but even now people skip steps and use irrational grey areas that leave me lost and confused - all the while thinking they are being clear and precise. The only difference is now I can google things if I am confused, or at least know what questions to ask (usually) to get the right information.
11 Jul 2011, 7:41 am
You know Goodolddays you've had realms and realms of good advice given to you on this thread, most of which you seem to be chucking back in peoples faces, with the over riding tone of your threads becoming more and more "Geez I'm wasting my time here with a bunch of ignoramuses who just dont get it, perhaps if I get angrier and angrier and repeat myself and get louder and louder I will get my point across....
Maybe try another tactic? Maybe lose the arrogance and sarcasm and REALLY read a few of those threads over , in an unemotional frame of mind. People are really trying to help you here, and help your son, and there are people here with an awful lot of common sense, wisdom and experience WHO REALLY DO GET IT. Listen to it, dont waste it.
I think if just once , in all your thread, you'd indicated an openess to others viewpoints, but you seem fairly hell bent on hanging onto you own.
Just consider, for a moment, that the rigid ideas you've been holding onto are not the best way forward.
And no ones interested in throwing tomatoes at you by the way.
11 Jul 2011, 7:45 am
goodolddays wrote:
...and then so, so, so much more, all done step-by-step, methodically, logically, intellectually, sweetly, lovingly, with lots of lively examples ...has already been provided to him - not once, not twice, but hundreds of times by now...and when he still does not show any reduction in the unacceptable behavior, then here is what any normal human being will feel like saying:
You do know that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
You talk as if you think none of us understand what you are going through. We do. Our children have exhibited the same problematic behaviors and many of us in many different ways have learned ways to reduce many of them. Not all and not all the time but I have observed the exact behaviors you describe decrease in my son and others here have reported the same. Stop talking for a little while and try to learn something from many of the experiences described here.
11 Jul 2011, 7:46 am
Chronos wrote:
I do hope you decide to stay. What culture did you grow up in?
One in Eastern Europe. So yes, former communist.
Chronos wrote:
If someone is asexual, doesn't have a partner, or chooses to spend their free time engaging in solitary hobbies, I don't see what the issue with that is as long as it doesn't bother them.
Maybe because I never knew anybody meeting those criteria AND who wasn't really bothered by it (they may have faked attempts to demonstrate that they are not but you could spot the effort from a mile; if given the chance, they would have changed their life in a bit).
The only person I've ever known this way and who really does not seem to be bothered by it is a relative on my husband's side of the family (so American; in my culture I've never known anyone like that). However, even this person is clearly seeking the company of family members (family of origin). He wants to be around some of the members in his family even though he doesn't really know HOW to communicate with them, he just kind of likes to be BY them. His mother worries that he will end up really alone AND lonely when she is no longer around.
I find this sad and it is certainly not something I would be "at peace" about if my child ended up in that situation; even if he told me he doesn't care about a spouse or any other close relationship. Many people THINK and SAY they don't - yet, they demonstrate through related actions that they DO and that their life WOULD be better if they had someone.
Last edited by goodolddays on 11 Jul 2011, 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
11 Jul 2011, 7:47 am
Bombaloo wrote:
goodolddays wrote:
...and then so, so, so much more, all done step-by-step, methodically, logically, intellectually, sweetly, lovingly, with lots of lively examples ...has already been provided to him - not once, not twice, but hundreds of times by now...and when he still does not show any reduction in the unacceptable behavior, then here is what any normal human being will feel like saying:
You do know that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
You talk as if you think none of us understand what you are going through. We do. Our children have exhibited the same problematic behaviors and many of us in many different ways have learned ways to reduce many of them. Not all and not all the time but I have observed the exact behaviors you describe decrease in my son and others here have reported the same. Stop talking for a little while and try to learn something from many of the experiences described here.
I would be happy to if someone came up with a method we haven't tried yet and one that actually worked. Yet to read about it.
11 Jul 2011, 8:05 am
catbalou wrote:
You know Goodolddays you've had realms and realms of good advice given to you on this thread, most of which you seem to be chucking back in peoples faces, with the over riding tone of your threads becoming more and more "Geez I'm wasting my time here with a bunch of ignoramuses who just dont get it, perhaps if I get angrier and angrier and repeat myself and get louder and louder I will get my point across....
Maybe try another tactic? Maybe lose the arrogance and sarcasm and REALLY read a few of those threads over , in an unemotional frame of mind. People are really trying to help you here, and help your son, and there are people here with an awful lot of common sense, wisdom and experience WHO REALLY DO GET IT. Listen to it, dont waste it.
I think if just once , in all your thread, you'd indicated an openess to others viewpoints, but you seem fairly hell bent on hanging onto you own.
Just consider, for a moment, that the rigid ideas you've been holding onto are not the best way forward.
And no ones interested in throwing tomatoes at you by the way.
Maybe try another tactic? Maybe lose the arrogance and sarcasm and REALLY read a few of those threads over , in an unemotional frame of mind. People are really trying to help you here, and help your son, and there are people here with an awful lot of common sense, wisdom and experience WHO REALLY DO GET IT. Listen to it, dont waste it.
I think if just once , in all your thread, you'd indicated an openess to others viewpoints, but you seem fairly hell bent on hanging onto you own.
Just consider, for a moment, that the rigid ideas you've been holding onto are not the best way forward.
And no ones interested in throwing tomatoes at you by the way.
I honestly don't know what to respond to this.
Or do you think I am lying when I told you we tried EVERYTHING that has been suggested here and we do not see results?
One poster did make a good point: it could be that his big issues stem from a very serious case of ADHD. As I said before, when we went for the evaluation, we expected that he would receive an ADHD dx.
The psychologist said that she cannot give an ADHD dx at his age (slightly over 5y 7 months at the time of testing) because it was "too early" but that "he is likely to develop attention problems in the future".
She did not say anything else about ADHD as the AS seemed to be her pet dx in that moment.
Yet, many of his routine problems come from what most people know to be ADHD-like traits:
- Fidgets like crazy.
- Loses everything he touches; drops everything he touches unconsciously on the floor.
- He is like a Tornado everywhere he goes: he leaves a huge mess behind him, throws things all over the place.
- Disorganized beyond belief; will not remember to put things away regardless of the amount of instruction, reminders, visuals on the wall, consequences, etc. I am not even sure a death threat would remind him to do what needs done. As in "if you don't remember to put your things away when you leave the room, you will perish". He wouldn't remember.
- Distracted by the slightest little noise or object somewhere.
- Cannot engage him more than a few seconds in a conversation that he is not fully self-driven into because his attention is diverted by something: a drop of rain, a bird at the window, a tiny spider web somewhere.
He simply doesn't care about what you want to pass on to him.
I am obviously not an expert and have not yet read lots of technical details about ADHD, but from the little I know these are all ADHD traits.
11 Jul 2011, 8:27 am
From what I understand it is possible to meet the criteria for both. My diagnosis lists both AS and ADHD-NOS.
He's probably still entirely too young to read, but if you leave little picture reminders around the house for him to see when his attention wanders it might do some small good.
A picture of putting clothes in the clothes bin by his bed, a picture of someone cleaning the floor on the door out of his room, etc. A lot of the new therapies seem to be picture driven, so he should be able to understand this.
If he isn't concentrating when you try to talk to him, leaving messages in places where his attention will end up wandering to may be a better way of conveying information to him for now.
You could even put pictures of common things you want him to do on the ceiling or wall around his bed. So when he is falling asleep he has something to look at that he can puzzle over/think about. I remember that being a time when I stared for hours at the texture of the paint on my wall... if there were pictures with messages there...
11 Jul 2011, 8:38 am
K-R-X wrote:
From what I understand it is possible to meet the criteria for both. My diagnosis lists both AS and ADHD-NOS.
He's probably still entirely too young to read, but if you leave little picture reminders around the house for him to see when his attention wanders it might do some small good.
A picture of putting clothes in the clothes bin by his bed, a picture of someone cleaning the floor on the door out of his room, etc. A lot of the new therapies seem to be picture driven, so he should be able to understand this.
If he isn't concentrating when you try to talk to him, leaving messages in places where his attention will end up wandering to may be a better way of conveying information to him for now.
You could even put pictures of common things you want him to do on the ceiling or wall around his bed. So when he is falling asleep he has something to look at that he can puzzle over/think about. I remember that being a time when I stared for hours at the texture of the paint on my wall... if there were pictures with messages there.
He's probably still entirely too young to read, but if you leave little picture reminders around the house for him to see when his attention wanders it might do some small good.
A picture of putting clothes in the clothes bin by his bed, a picture of someone cleaning the floor on the door out of his room, etc. A lot of the new therapies seem to be picture driven, so he should be able to understand this.
If he isn't concentrating when you try to talk to him, leaving messages in places where his attention will end up wandering to may be a better way of conveying information to him for now.
You could even put pictures of common things you want him to do on the ceiling or wall around his bed. So when he is falling asleep he has something to look at that he can puzzle over/think about. I remember that being a time when I stared for hours at the texture of the paint on my wall... if there were pictures with messages there.
That's a great idea. He does have a step-by-step "dress yourself" chart on the wall right now, but this is it.
Adding more reminders on walls may help, but then I don't want to go into overload either. Some big fun pictures would probably be better than boring text, even though HE CAN read.
He reads at first-second grade level right now. He doesn't fly fluently, like an adult - but he goes. If it is text that he has practiced before, he is basically fluent.
11 Jul 2011, 8:45 am
K-R-X wrote:
A picture of putting clothes in the clothes bin by his bed, a picture of someone cleaning the floor on the door out of his room, etc. A lot of the new therapies seem to be picture driven, so he should be able to understand this.
Do you know of any therapies that might address not dropping the objects on the floor in the first place and just putting them where they belong right away - so that the Tornado syndrome can be reduced, if not completely eliminated?
He leaves a huge mess behind and then he finds the task of cleaning up the room when leaving too daunting; then he kicks off the "pissy" mode because he is faced with cleaning up his own mess which is always too much to handle.
I know that a contributing problem to this particular aspect is the amount of toys a child has at his finger tips at any given moment. We have reduced them as much as we could but they always somehow creep back in. He knows there are more stashed away, wants some more of those badly after a while, and we don't always have the time to rotate. So more creep back in again. Of course they receive toys from extended family, at BDays, etc.
My children have few toys relative to what I have seen in most middle class American households (mind boggling) but they have A LOT compared to what I had growing up (the number was 2: a bear and a doll).
It's really hard to "ADHD" on that number.
Last edited by goodolddays on 11 Jul 2011, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
11 Jul 2011, 9:01 am
Nothing official. Written or picture instructions that go, literally, step by step "Pick up clothes, put them in hamper. Pick up X toys, put them X. Pick up Y toys, put them in Y" may help. I still have trouble breaking down steps and often have to talk/write them out, so that could be a part of it.
Depending on his traits, if you let him organize his stuff in a way that is pleasing to him (by color, size, etc/lined up/stacked) he may automatically do it. I'm not the best to ask though, as I'm still probably as guilty as your son when it comes to this. My only way to contain it really, is by staying out of common areas as much as possible. Habits help too, if you manage to get used to them. Not a weekly thing, but a every time-no exceptions thing. Wash the dishes every time I use them, no leaving them for the dishwasher. Clean the toilet+sink every time I use one, no leaving it to get bad.
My parents used to go through my room with a trash bag and take away anything that wasn't put away+bargin with me+yell at me+show me step by step how to clean. The only thing that really helped was having less stuff around to deal with (not that the punishment convinced me to clean, but taking away most of my things made what I had left actually more manageable).
