Devastated - please help!

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Have you tried writing any social stories for him? We pick one problematic behavior and write a social story about it. We read that story every day or even multiple times a day until he simply won't listen to it anymore. I create them in PowerPoint and we look at them on the computer. This makes it easy to include pictures of him and other members of the family, teachers, other kids at school, whatever helps drive home the current topic. I have also done some that we print out and laminate and bring to school if there is a problem behavior going on at school. One example of a behavior we overcame this way was packing up his own lunch box stuff at the end of lunch time. The school expected all the kids to be responsible for themselves in this task and DS was having a lot of trouble with it, always wanting someone to do it for him. We worked on it with a social story and gave him lots of positive reinforcement each time he would do any part of it himself and now he does it without even being asked. It took about 3 weeks.

There really are people who are happy being single and engaging in their solitary hobbies. Some people with AS consider themselves asexual. These individuals probably just haven't found someone they are sufficiently attracted to such that they want to be with them, and being in a relationship just for the sake of being in a relationship would stress them.

I agree with the other poster that your son's impulse control issues are more characteristic of ADHD and not AS. When I was a child I minded rules far more than other children, and I ALWAYS tried to do what I was told what was the right thing, and on occasion this got me in trouble because what I was told was the right thing to do, apparently wasn't. Maybe you can relate because in communist countries there was the ideal, how things were supposed to work and what you were supposed to do, and then there was the reality, what people had to do to make up for the shortcomings of communism in practice. Small things, like illegal commerce to obtain supplies one had difficulty obtaining through the system. A younger person with AS, who only has AS, would adhere to the ideal even at the expense of their own well being and perhaps the well being of their family because the young AS mind only deals with absolutes. If you tell a young child with AS, and AS only, what is right and what is wrong, they will embrace that as written in stone, and trust that you are telling them the truth and assume everyone abides by that.

If the USSR had been full of people with AS and only AS there would have been no transgressions of communist ideals except in rare instances. The system may still have failed but the dynamics of the collapse would have been very different.

I have to ask, what type of impulsive things does your son do? A child with AS may do something that seems impulsive but had actually been dwelt on for a while, and the child simply failed to understand the perspectives of others in initiating the matter. For example, when I was 7 I once made a big mess in the bathroom with shaving cream when my mother was away. My mother and the baby sitter were not happy and my mother, at the time, thought I did it to spite her for going out and leaving me with a baby sitter. This was not the case. When I was in the bathroom I happened to see a fly, and I decided to kill it, as was what my mother usually did when she saw a fly. I simply chose a novel method to do so, by attempting to clap it between my shaving cream filled hands.

I thought about it for a while and my 7 year old brain thought it seemed like a good idea. I had no reason to believe this would upset anyone. My brain never considered there would be a huge mess that would have to be cleaned up, and to be honest, after the fact, the mess didn't seem very horrible to me and I didn't see what the issue was that people had with it as it was only shaving cream.

I still recommend you enroll your son in a karate class. Children with ADHD seem to excel in those because they have a lot of energy and if you find a more traditional place, it teaches them attentiveness and discipline and gives them a reason to feel good about themselves, and confident in themselves.

Which brings us to another point. Children with ADHD frequently secretly struggle with low self esteem because they become upset with themselves when they mess up.

That's not an ADHD trait. ADHD kids care about what you're trying to tell them, but the slightest distraction makes them loose track of their words.

I'm worried that you seem to take a lot of your son's behavior personally, talking about him not caring and wanting to upset you and such. If that were true, it would not suggest ADHD or AS. It would suggest oppositional defiant disorder or even psychopathy, and it doesn't sound like your son has either of those conditions.

He does sometimes confuse "rules" too and can't seem to distinguish when the "rule" can and when it cannot be applied. At the same time I would not say he cares about rules all that much.
He breaks rules over and over again - usually for impulsiveness-related reasons.



Oh, Goodness. Our entire life was a complete duality and everybody was a Master at "pretend play".
People knew there was a certain way to behave and certain things you said or never said in official/public situations. In private, everybody was sabotaging and bad-mouthing the system. There wasn't one single citizen that could have been manipulated by mass-media, official slogans and the like. A bit more than we can say about most societies today. But this is severely off topic and we shall stop with the politics right here.



Then we must not have had AS people because nobody was adhering to any ideal .



I have a hard time recognizing my son in this. He can manipulate, he can lie, and can certainly deal with duality.
As I was afraid he might embarrass me in some social situations, I once explained to him that we cannot always tell people what we think or what we believe to be true. I gave him an example like this: "if you see a mom pushing her baby in a stroller, and her baby is ugly - you cannot tell the mom she has an ugly baby, because it will hurt her feelings; even if it is true that the baby is ugly".

He seemed to have caught on right away and I am pretty sure he would not have told such a hypothetical mom that her baby was ugly even if I hadn't instructed him about this logically. He never really struck me as inherently disconnected from people and social situations. He rather appears self-driven and inattentive to social situations - because his mind flies elsewhere.

Another huge flag that this child might actually have ADHD and that the psychologist may have gotten the whole thing wrong.



Ex 1: At the market: you have these open markets with small farmers distributing their own produce on stands. My son goes straight to a stand with cherries and wants to pick a few. I tell him he cannot touch the merchandise before paying, he stops for a second...then touches it anyway. I could tell he just could not help himself. I get even more firm with him and tell him he is NOT to touch the merchandise on another stand again. A few seconds go by and he touches it again. He does it instinctively, not deliberately. You can almost see him not being able to hold it in. He understands the farmer does not like his merchandise touched; but he does it anyway. Can't help it.

Ex 2: My parents' neighbors are all close friends of theirs. In fact they all built these vacation houses one next to the other, 30 years into their friendship; so the social boundaries between these 4 residences are minimal. Everybody goes into everybody's yard all the time, people spend more time outside, on porches than inside...you just drop by.
My son soon caught on that you can come and go, to and fro, to "uncle so and so"...and "auntie so and so" next door, as you please. So he was constantly going over at these people, hanging out there. At some point though, enough was kind of enough, and my parents had to explain to him that you cannot go into someone's yard/house as you please and stay that long, even if people around here are all very good friends. "You can only go to uncle x next door when he invites you or when we go". Right. You wish. He ignores the rule and goes anyway. He goes to get candy or to play with the puppy or whatever. He is scolded for broken the rule, presented with the consequence if he breaks the rule again...ans then he goes again anyway. Can't help it.

Ex 3: A tray with goodies was just brought to the table. He sticks his fingers in the food almost instantly. Doesn't think about possible dirty hands, impoliteness, setting plates, waiting for others to start too. Just has to do it right then and there. Can't help it.

He is the kind of child that will do what he's got to do - right then and there.
Rules??? Forget about them!

Which again, makes me question the AS dx.

I am not sure whether he ever had situations similar to your shaving cream story, but it is possible.



That reminds me of a little thing he said today.

They recently befriended a 6-7 yo girl who lives up on a hill, right across from my parents' house. She comes from a poor family whose house was somehow left in this area where people with some money have been building vacation houses over the past decade or so (gentrification). Her family's ethnicity is severely and overtly discriminated against in this country.
Well, the little girl was very shy at first but eventually made her way to my parents' house. I asked her to come in the yard to play with my kids (to my father's profound discomfort who is somewhat of a racist by default, just like ANY regular person in this country, including the nice ones .

Of course, he is treating the girl fine ... so now she's become a regular visitor and guest at the table for the past 5 days or so. She simply shows up/invites herself. Her parents don't care, they let her step out of her yard, come over and stay however long.

That being said: I was shocked to realize how socially tuned in this little girl is and how incredibly attentive she is to everything that is happening around her. She anticipates what everyone around her wants every step of the way; she feels every vibe and will do anything to make herself useful before anybody even asks her to do anything. She will jump to help my mom set the table without being asked; she takes my daughter by the hand and takes her to the potty as soon as she sees she might need to go; gets her hair out of her eyes and fixes it back in a pony tail; once my father asked my mom to bring him some water and before he even finished his words the girl had already brought some water from the kitchen. She doesn't talk much, doesn't know how old she is or when her birthday is ...but she is a genius at figuring out those around her.

I am sure her family's underprivileged position may have contributed to this overly developed instinct of "trying to please".

Once, she came right after my kids had made the usual Epic mess on the porch, where they play - leaving a Tornado trail behind them. I told them they need to pick up the toys before they start playing with the girl. At that very moment, the girl stepped in and using both of her hands at once, she picked everything up, placed everything in the right boxes, arranged the table and the chairs and left perfect order behind her in less than a minute.
I thought I was going to faint.

I found myself wishing she could lend my son, and even to my daughter, one tiny fraction of whatever "magic" she has in her: incredible drive to help out, an incredible sense of order and an amazing ability to read and figure out those around her.
All this at the age of 6. I have to admit I never saw a child like that in the US. By comparison with this little girl, every single American child looks and acts autistic.

I praised her in front of my kids for her hard work, organizational skills and willingness to volunteer.

This evening, my son told me: "Mom I wish I could be "Annie" and she could be me. I asked him: what do you mean?
Then he said: "I wish I were that organized and she was disorganized like me".

I gave him a big hug and told him he could do the same if he chose to ...but he didn't look convinced that this is something you could CHOOSE to be.

It hurt a little to hear him say that he would have liked to be like Annie...but now I've noticed that when I say "let's all pick up the toys and put them away like Annie does", they both get somewhat invigorated and step up the process a little bit. Not by much ...but something; or maybe it's wishful thinking.

I know it is not OK to compare your kids ...but I am desperate for anything that might help.

Last edited by goodolddays on 11 Jul 2011, 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

He is often in that situation. He starts out by listening and then he gets distracted by something. It often feels like he doesn't care because he ends up getting up, going elsewhere, twisting...then forgetting about what you want to say to him anyway.

I think I would be questioning too. This doesn't sound like AS. It sounds more like ADHD or ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)

Children with AS alone are far more likely to be "goody two shoes" and one problem that the more outgoing children with AS have is that they well be very eager to tell their classmates what rules they are breaking and may take to "tattling" a lot like little policemen.



I think you should look into the ADHD more. As I said, AS tends to be overdiagnosed now days and used as the "bad little boy" diagnosis, much as ADHD was in the 90's. But there are people who really have ADHD and there are people who really have AS. Maybe your son has both but it sounds like most of the problems you have with him are due to his impulsiveness which would be due more to ADHD.

Impulsivity is definitely part of AS. My daughter can be as impulsive as these stories here. Her diagnostic report states "The problems with inattention, hyperactivity, impulsivity, and separation anxiety/anxiety are present within the context of the pervasive developmental disorder (Asperger's)."

In Tony Attwood's Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome he states (p 234):

"In the early school years, the main signs of impaired executive function are difficulties with inhibiting a response (i e being impulsive), working memory and using new strategies. The child with Asperger's syndrome can be notorious for being impulsive in school work and in social situations, appearing to respond without thinking of the context, consequences, and previous experience."

In The Explosive Child by Ross Greene (p 14):

"The children about whom this book is written do not choose to be explosive-any more than a child would choose to have a reading disability-but they are delayed in the process of developing the skills essential for flexibility and frustration tolerence. It follows that coventional explanations as to why children explode or refuse to do as they are told-"He's doing it for attention"; "He just wants his own way"; "He's manipulating us"; "He could do better if he really wanted to"; "He does just fine when he chooses to"-miss the mark. There's a big difference between viewing explosive behavior as the result of the failure to progress developmentally and viewing it as learned, planned, intentional, goal oriented, and purposeful. That's because your interpretation of a child's explosive behavior will be closely linked to how you try to change his behavior. In other words, your explanation guides your interventon."

Have you tried stripping away all of your expectations of him that might be inhibited by his delayed development? In other words, you might have a 5 year old physically, and he might even be 8-9 intellectually, but perhaps he is 2-3 socially and emotionally. If you didn't expect responses from him appropriate to his physical age and really tried to focus on the possibility that he is socially/emotionally much younger, perhaps he would do better without always feeling as if he is bad or doing things wrong. Many of us here have gone through the process of stripping down to bare minimums in times of difficulty. At these times we put no social burdens on them so they can decompress a bit. Then you can add things like play dates, or trips to the grocery store, or less supervision. But you have to start at a place of decompression and no stress to be able to work towards goals of improving social/emotional maturity. It is much slower than typical children and there are set backs and regression along the way. I get the feeling that if he felt better about himself and was less stressed about about being "bad" he might be more adaptable.

I know I'm miles behind on this discussion and, once again, posting with limited time, but the best way to get your child the best possible future is to understand who he is and help his needs get met. To do that, you have to change your point of view. That is the hardest part for many parents, and it seems to be for you, as well. The things you learn here seeds. They need time to take root and grow. We can't change you or your child in the space of a week, but we can help you raise a happy and engaged child. Can we guarantee he won't have issues that prevent him from earning an income? No, we can't. But he WILL be someone of value, and if you walk the lines right, he can find self esteem and a useful role regardless of income.

To tell or not tell the school is something we've discussed here. It depends, quite honestly, on where you live. My son has had had good schools and an inclusive community, so telling has been a complete "win" for us. Which is what it should be everywhere. It's like the magic word that helps adults around him know what to do and what not to do with him, and it is why he has had successful experiences with team sports, sleep away camps, and Boy Scouts. No adult here will allow teasing over it, my son has friends, and he is on the road to independence, just his time and his way. Adults here complain about parents who withhold that information, because it is the same as telling someone to drive a car but giving them the keys to a different car: how can someone teach or coach a child properly when such a crucial piece of understanding is missing? If you are in an area that is educated on AS, you TELL all adults that take responsibility for your child. If you aren't ... I'd strongly recommend moving. Your child's prospects will change THAT much depending on the life he experiences.

You ask what is the point if we can't promise outcomes. EVERYTHING. Life isn't about promising outcomes, it is about improving the odds. Didn't you take better care of yourself when pregnant? It couldn't promise a healthy baby, but it did give it a better chance. Same here. You are working to give your child the best chance possible.

Two common and useful accommodations have nothing to do with paying for services: sensory accommodations like ear phones in assemblies, and permission to leave the classroom when needed to head off a meltdown. My son desperately needed both.

Talk to him before you leave the house to go to the market. Explain that the only time anyone touches any of the fruits and vegetables is when they are going to buy them. That's the rule. We do this because if we touch fruit we are not going to buy we spread our germs on it and it can make other people sick. Repeat this just before you get to the market. Check for understanding by asking him to repeat the rule back to you. When you approach the first table remind him that we only touch what we are going to buy. Be prepared to physically stop him if he reaches to touch the fruit (you know he is going to do it so be ready to intervene). When you have decided on something you are going to buy, allow him to pick it up and put it in the bag. Praise him for doing it right.

Try as much as possible to use positive language, telling him what TO do not what NOT to do. Obviously this isn't always possible but with a bit of effort it can have a big impact helping his self esteem. It might also help to give him a fidget to play with so at least one of his hands is occupied. This doesn't work for all kids but it can be useful for us sometimes. One favorite item that my son carries around is a Hotwheels car.



I think you changed the rule on him and he doesn't really grasp it. You may need to enlist the help of the other adults to set limits of when he needs to leave. Or if he can tell time at all you can tell him that he can stay at so-and-sos until the big hand is on the 12 (or a specific time if he is good at that). Rules need to be precidely defined and this one sounds like it might be a little to vague for him.



Similar to the situation with the market. You know he is going to do it so warn him before the tray is within his reach. Tell him he must keep his hands to himself until the person serving the food tells him it is okay to take a treat. Also, before the tray is set down remind him that he must only touch THE treat that he is going to eat. He is not allowed to touch one and put it back. Again, check for understanding and be prepared to physically intervene. Praise him when he does it right.

I disagree. To my knowledge, Hans Asperger never cited impulsiveness, however he did note of at least one boy that he was calculating. It likely just so happens that your daughter is impulsive. If impulsiveness as an element of AS is popping up in reports than this is more likely due to a paradigm shift.

Tony Attwood is not Hans Asperger

Please, sit down and listen to yourself. You are rejecting what the experts say? You are really having a tough time accepting this. I hate to say it, though others have already...please get help before your son grows up to loath you. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying this to help your family.

And you don't seem to understand the point I am making. All you keep saying is that I am not accepting this.
Accepting what, Wreck-Gar?

I know full well my son has SOMETHING. This was never under debate. So no: I am not rejecting what the experts say.
Not in this case - though my brain is in no way a slave to everything "experts" proclaim. I tend to like to assess and understand for myself their arguments and then see if I buy or not. They teach you this thing called "critical thinking" if you go to school long enough; and eventually it clicks in.
I pity anyone who trades their most basic common sense for a blind faith in all "experts".

In this case I simply said that what the experts call "emotional retardation" is still something offensive and harmful to those around the child and that manifests itself as sheer selfishness. What part of that you don't understand?
Nowhere in this statement did I disagree with your beloved "experts".
But your beloved experts cannot tell me how to feel about the behavior they gave a clinical name to.
The most they can say is this: your child has x (fine, I believe you) and X is due to Y in his brain (fine, I believe you).

But you can call a behavior HOWEVER you want. A name is just a name.
At the end of the day though, the action/behavior remains the same and is just as harmful to the child and those around him - regardless of how you call it.

Last edited by goodolddays on 12 Jul 2011, 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.