22 Jun 2009, 8:03 pm
23 Jun 2009, 10:28 am
Tracker wrote:
Hello Logan
Welcome to Wrong Planet, I hope you enjoy your visits.
It is unfortunate that your son is having problems, but hopefully we can help resolve some.
I have found that the majority of problems with misbehaving teenagers is mainly caused by the parents attempting to treat teenagers like young children. Allow me to explain:
It is important for people to do certain things in their lives, such as working at a job, getting an education, remaining sanitary, staying out of risky situations, etc. Now these are important for reasons that are logical and understandable. If nobody worked, then nobody would eat. It is important for people to do their job in order for society to function. And since you cannot do your job effectively without learning how to do it, you must get a good education. Likewise remaining sanitary (washing hands) is important because it stops the spread of diseases and you get sick less often.
The problem is that very young children lack the ability to think far into the future and understand the full implications of their actions. They dont want to take a bath or wash their hands because it means they have to stop playing. They dont understand that remaining dirty and eating food without washing first makes them more likely to be sick. As such, you have to set in place a system to entice them to act in a reasonable fashion. Simply put, since they cant see future benefits or disadvantages to their actions, you have to give artificial benefits and disadvantages now.
However, this should only be a short term solution until your child is capable of seeing future consequences. Generally this is somewhere around age 7-8. I am going to assume that your son has developed the ability to think about the future and understand that one things leads to another, and as such different actions will lead to different outcomes.
At this point, you should sit down with your child, and make a list of family goals. For example:
1. Everybody in the family should treat the other people with respect. That means no yelling, hitting, insulting, etc. Keep in mind that these rules will apply to you also. You can't expect your son to be respectful of you if you dont respect him.
2. Everybody in the family should listen to what the other person has to say, and at least consider it. If they disagree then they should give reasons why, and the other person has to listen back. Shouting matches do nothing.
3. Everybody should work together in order to get the necessary chores of life done. This means that you split up the house chores in an agreeable manner so everybody helps everybody else.
4. Everybody should do their best to insure a positive future for everybody in the family. For example, your son should go to school because that in general leads to a good future. You should help him with homework and what not when he asks for help. Likewise, he should try to help his siblings when they need help.
Add more to the list as you see fit, but try to keep it to stuff like this. The idea is that you can show your son everything on the list, and explain why it is important, and what the benefits are of acting this way. Ask him for his input, what things would he like to add to the list and why. Just go over it with your son and work out a list of goals.
After you have your goals written down, start figuring out ways how to help each other accomplish these goals. For example, saying 'you will do the chores I tell you to because I say so' is not helpful, and also violates the agreement to respect your son. Instead, try writing down a list of all the chores that need to be done, and why. Talk about the benefits of getting these chores done. Once you have a complete list of chores, go through and divide them up amongst the family members. You get some, your son gets some, your husband gets some, etc. Work out an agreement that you all like. I would suggest rotating chores. For example you do set A one week, then set B next week, then set C next week, then you go back to set A. That way any chore imbalance is made up for.
Also work out systems to insure that things get done. For example, if somebody forgets to do chores, what will happen? Do they get double chores next week? What if somebody looses their temper and yells? They should apologize. Keep in mind that any requirements you work out with your son will be applied to yourself also. This isnt a list of things your son must do, but a list of things you should all do as a family to accomplish as much as possible and enjoy life to the fullest.
It is important to realize that even the best plans dont always work all the time. You will inevitably lose your temper, make mistakes, and so will your son. What is important isnt that you are all perfect, but that you are willing to admit fault and work out a solution to the problem in a calm matter so that it doesn't happen again. Try working with your son and help him to figure out how to effectively get things done. Don't just punish him because you dislike his actions.
When you treat your son this way and talk about your problems and work out a solution together it shows your son that you do respect and listen to him. Conversely, attempting to just give him time outs and coerce him into acting a certain way will do nothing but make your son dislike you, and you can be sure that he will not listen to what you have to say. The main reason teenagers don't listen to their parents isnt because they are cocky, but because the parents dont listen to them.
And as for limiting his access to computers, dont do that unless it directly interferes with his ability to perform essential tasks. For example, dont let him play on the computer instead of sleeping because that isnt good for his health. But dont limit his computer time under the idea that 'its bad for you'. I can assure you that playing on the computer is not inherently bad for a person. In fact, I can think of no other activity that stimulates the mind as much as playing on the computer. It also acts as a great stress reducer, and it is a great tool towards learning new information.
When I was 12 years old, I was making 3d models with a game's model editor. It was called descent 3. You flew around is spaceships blowing stuff up. And you could make custom designed space ships and fighting arenas with the model editor. I spent a lot of time playing that game, and building cool models and do you know what happened? I didn't become a lazy addict who never accomplished anything. I instead got to relax and unwind after a hectic day at school with all those people and regain my stamina so I could do it again the next day. I also learned a lot about modeling and enjoyed myself. Now 10 years later, I am an engineer, and spend my time modeling aircraft structures on the computer, and get paid to do it.
So please, dont limit your son's access to his primary method of enjoyment, relaxation, and learning simply because our culture has the false notion that video games are bad. Playing on the computer helps more then anything else I know of, and it is a lot cheaper to buy your son some game and let him relax then it is to higher a therapist because he couldnt find a good way to de-stress and wound up having a nervous break down.
Welcome to Wrong Planet, I hope you enjoy your visits.
It is unfortunate that your son is having problems, but hopefully we can help resolve some.
I have found that the majority of problems with misbehaving teenagers is mainly caused by the parents attempting to treat teenagers like young children. Allow me to explain:
It is important for people to do certain things in their lives, such as working at a job, getting an education, remaining sanitary, staying out of risky situations, etc. Now these are important for reasons that are logical and understandable. If nobody worked, then nobody would eat. It is important for people to do their job in order for society to function. And since you cannot do your job effectively without learning how to do it, you must get a good education. Likewise remaining sanitary (washing hands) is important because it stops the spread of diseases and you get sick less often.
The problem is that very young children lack the ability to think far into the future and understand the full implications of their actions. They dont want to take a bath or wash their hands because it means they have to stop playing. They dont understand that remaining dirty and eating food without washing first makes them more likely to be sick. As such, you have to set in place a system to entice them to act in a reasonable fashion. Simply put, since they cant see future benefits or disadvantages to their actions, you have to give artificial benefits and disadvantages now.
However, this should only be a short term solution until your child is capable of seeing future consequences. Generally this is somewhere around age 7-8. I am going to assume that your son has developed the ability to think about the future and understand that one things leads to another, and as such different actions will lead to different outcomes.
At this point, you should sit down with your child, and make a list of family goals. For example:
1. Everybody in the family should treat the other people with respect. That means no yelling, hitting, insulting, etc. Keep in mind that these rules will apply to you also. You can't expect your son to be respectful of you if you dont respect him.
2. Everybody in the family should listen to what the other person has to say, and at least consider it. If they disagree then they should give reasons why, and the other person has to listen back. Shouting matches do nothing.
3. Everybody should work together in order to get the necessary chores of life done. This means that you split up the house chores in an agreeable manner so everybody helps everybody else.
4. Everybody should do their best to insure a positive future for everybody in the family. For example, your son should go to school because that in general leads to a good future. You should help him with homework and what not when he asks for help. Likewise, he should try to help his siblings when they need help.
Add more to the list as you see fit, but try to keep it to stuff like this. The idea is that you can show your son everything on the list, and explain why it is important, and what the benefits are of acting this way. Ask him for his input, what things would he like to add to the list and why. Just go over it with your son and work out a list of goals.
After you have your goals written down, start figuring out ways how to help each other accomplish these goals. For example, saying 'you will do the chores I tell you to because I say so' is not helpful, and also violates the agreement to respect your son. Instead, try writing down a list of all the chores that need to be done, and why. Talk about the benefits of getting these chores done. Once you have a complete list of chores, go through and divide them up amongst the family members. You get some, your son gets some, your husband gets some, etc. Work out an agreement that you all like. I would suggest rotating chores. For example you do set A one week, then set B next week, then set C next week, then you go back to set A. That way any chore imbalance is made up for.
Also work out systems to insure that things get done. For example, if somebody forgets to do chores, what will happen? Do they get double chores next week? What if somebody looses their temper and yells? They should apologize. Keep in mind that any requirements you work out with your son will be applied to yourself also. This isnt a list of things your son must do, but a list of things you should all do as a family to accomplish as much as possible and enjoy life to the fullest.
It is important to realize that even the best plans dont always work all the time. You will inevitably lose your temper, make mistakes, and so will your son. What is important isnt that you are all perfect, but that you are willing to admit fault and work out a solution to the problem in a calm matter so that it doesn't happen again. Try working with your son and help him to figure out how to effectively get things done. Don't just punish him because you dislike his actions.
When you treat your son this way and talk about your problems and work out a solution together it shows your son that you do respect and listen to him. Conversely, attempting to just give him time outs and coerce him into acting a certain way will do nothing but make your son dislike you, and you can be sure that he will not listen to what you have to say. The main reason teenagers don't listen to their parents isnt because they are cocky, but because the parents dont listen to them.
And as for limiting his access to computers, dont do that unless it directly interferes with his ability to perform essential tasks. For example, dont let him play on the computer instead of sleeping because that isnt good for his health. But dont limit his computer time under the idea that 'its bad for you'. I can assure you that playing on the computer is not inherently bad for a person. In fact, I can think of no other activity that stimulates the mind as much as playing on the computer. It also acts as a great stress reducer, and it is a great tool towards learning new information.
When I was 12 years old, I was making 3d models with a game's model editor. It was called descent 3. You flew around is spaceships blowing stuff up. And you could make custom designed space ships and fighting arenas with the model editor. I spent a lot of time playing that game, and building cool models and do you know what happened? I didn't become a lazy addict who never accomplished anything. I instead got to relax and unwind after a hectic day at school with all those people and regain my stamina so I could do it again the next day. I also learned a lot about modeling and enjoyed myself. Now 10 years later, I am an engineer, and spend my time modeling aircraft structures on the computer, and get paid to do it.
So please, dont limit your son's access to his primary method of enjoyment, relaxation, and learning simply because our culture has the false notion that video games are bad. Playing on the computer helps more then anything else I know of, and it is a lot cheaper to buy your son some game and let him relax then it is to higher a therapist because he couldnt find a good way to de-stress and wound up having a nervous break down.
Thanks for your input as well!
I do want to clarify one thing - I know it worried you... I have only tried to take away computer privileges when my son is outright defiant or belligerent toward, say, clearing his room of dirty dishes when we've asked. His level to detail is so limited, that we can't even have him sweep the floors, as many areas are missed. Folding clothes is not good either, but I do get him to try. He does very little around the house (we ask very little of him, feeling he has enough to deal with day to day life for now.) About 3 times a week he will empty the dishwasher, and that's it. He occasionally folds a load of clothes when asked. He never does any chore unless it's asked. Generally, getting him to do any task or chore is almost next to impossible without a lot of discussion. For example, yesterday I asked him to remove his 2 food dishes from the living room. I had to ask no less than 4 times. I'm not kidding. Usually I don't let it go that long; I insist, he rebels, (even though he knows it's a privilege to eat in his room, even though he knows he's the one that dirtied the dishes) then I finally threaten to take away computer, he gets mad, etc. I am not taking it away for long either. (Not even more than a couple of hours; when he is calm/settled again he generally gets it back.) So, I've never felt the computer was 'bad' for him. I know he is using it to self-teach himself many things, as well as a form of relaxation.I LOVE computers myself. He loves Wikipedia - he looks up info. on TV shows, computer games, etc. He's a good gamer. He and I have troubleshooted so many different computer issues, it's fun to work with him on it, and has taught him tenacity. So no, I'm not one of those parents who has ever put strict limits on his TV or gaming time; I realize today is a different world than when I was a kid and we got our first Pong TV game from radioshack. 
Your plan to sit down with the family and discuss chore loads sounds great - but our biggest problem is motivating him to do any chores. Indeed, it seems he is very lazy sometimes. I think I am so worried too, that if he can't do any chores now, how can we expect him to work when he's older? There are not a lot of chores requested of him. Not by any means. I'll see about discussing with the family various chores, etc. as you said.
My son and I do have an open, communicative relationship... I do respect him, and I certainly take the time to listen to him and talk to him. I do find when he disrespects me by not being able to even pick up a couple of dishes after himself when asked, that it is hard to find a way to encourage him to do so, and it's hard on us to have to deal with that. We have tried asking really nicely, tried pointing out that it's not our responsibility, etc. I can't find any reason why he can't actually perform a light task whereby he made the mess. For us to have to pick up the dishes after him makes us feel like he's in charge - and truly, it shouldn't be that way. He is 12 anda half, maturing in many ways, but sometimes due to the AS he tends to behave emotionally immature, by a few years younger. his 7 year old sister is more responsible and does more around the house without complaining; it's got to be hard on him seeing her doing all of this, when he doesn't. I would love to have insight as to why he doesn't feel he should be cleaning up dishes after himself; like I said, I will deal with comics and clothes on the floor; but when it comes to dirty dishes, it becomes a sanitary issue. He understands sanitary - he is very good about hand washing after using the washroom, and understands how dirty that is.
Thank you for pointing out your success in life, and congrats!! You have done super for yourself! That's when I start to wonder about the varying degrees of AS. My son does seem to be in the more mild category for AS, but at the same time, I guess I need reassurance from other AS adults or teens that they once may have felt like my son did, and acted as my son did, and was fine in life. I don't want great things from him - I don't put huge expectations on him - but I would love for him to be happy with his career choice, and happy in life.
23 Jun 2009, 10:42 pm
23 Jun 2009, 11:25 pm
desdemona wrote:
I think paying bills and working are a bit abstract for a 12 year old. If he still doesn't understand this at 16-18 then I might be more worried. I think he has to pay bills of some kind to get it, whether its a cell phone or something. Later on you might have him pay for something real, but I think 12 is a bit young for that.
--des
--des
Thank you for your reassurance, that does make me feel better!
Good idea on the cell phone bill, etc. Thanks for replying!
24 Jun 2009, 1:51 am
24 Jun 2009, 10:02 am
Logan, seeing that this thread is still active, I have just reread it in its entirety. Before I make additional comments I want to say that you must be a wonderfully dedicated mother. Also, I am very impressed by the way you have replied intelligently to every post.
It is very difficult to give better advice about your son without seeing personally what is going on. It is possible that he has some additional condition which has not been diagnosed, and any advice obtained here won't solve the problem. Although you are surely an excellent mother, it is possible that you have been too lenient with him and that has led him to an idea that he is in control. On the other hand, the opposite is also possible, and he is rebelling because you have been too harsh and critical. You are going to have to figure out yourself what is going on, or get help figuring it out.
Your last post is very interesting. You seek reassurance from other AS folks that they once may have acted as your son does and are fine in life. I was one hard-nosed kid - unbelievably stubborn and defiant, actually. I was in constant trouble at school, and my very kind-hearted mother had no control over me whatsoever. My behavior was at its worst around the age 12-13. My life has been very successful, but I should add that I have certain intellectual gifts that I have put to good use and I was taught good core values at home. Also, it is possible that your son's problems are deeper than mine were.
Quote:
I think I am so worried too, that if he can't do any chores now, how can we expect him to work when he's older?
Whatever your son's problems are, it is an egregious error to correlate his unwillingness to do household chores at the age of 12 with his future career prospects, just as it is to make such a correlation with his unwillingness to keep his room tidy. These failings wouldn't even preclude him from winning the Nobel prize for physics or writing the great American novel. Teach your son common courtesy and right from wrong. Encourage him to excel at something so that he can feel pride. Don't waste your next five years fighting with him over household chores because you erroneously believe that is the key to his future.
As an aside, speaking of right and wrong, when your son suggested not paying the bills, I would have explained to him that a bill is money that you owe for something you bought, and that when you buy something you must pay for it. It is WRONG not to. Frankly, most five year olds can understand that concept. (Whether some of us AS youth and even adults have the organizational skills to actually get bills paid is another matter!).
Now for your problem with the blasted plates which concerns you so much. Frankly, it would drive me nuts, too, but you got yourself into the mess. Like Temple Grandin, I was raised in a 1950's household were etiquette and rules were part of family life. We ate at the table - as a family and at mealtimes. Period. There was no question of carting plates off to one's bedroom or even to the living room. I raised my kids the same way and they were never allowed to take food to their rooms or around the house. When they whined and asked why not, it was explained that it is enough work to clean the crumbs off the kitchen and dining room floors without needing to worry about messes all around the house. Because it was never allowed from the time they were little, they accepted it as they got older. What would happen if you now imposed a rule that everybody in your family henceforth only eats in the kitchen or dining room? Is it now too late to get your son to adhere to that rule?
I hesitate to give more advice, because I could be misjudging. If your son's defiance is similar to mine at his age, I would stop all conflict, even if it means that he does no household chores for a year or two. Perhaps get him into an extracurricular activity such as music, scouts, or sports, if he can handle it. I can describe what was going through my mind at the time if you think it would be useful, and what did work to an extent. I do think your son seems more angry than I was, but then my parents weren't trying to give me time-outs. It is also quite possible that the root of your son's behavior is different that mine was. Pavlov proved that behavioral theory works on dogs, and I understand that it words with some kids, including very autistic kids via ABA. I guarantee, however, that it didn't work with me. At the age of 12-13, I don't think anything short of a red-hot poker to my bare skin would have sufficed to get me to do something I had decided against. I assure you that I was a very nice kid nonetheless
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24 Jun 2009, 12:46 pm
24 Jun 2009, 6:13 pm
24 Jun 2009, 7:21 pm
25 Jun 2009, 7:30 am
