My inflexibility over a trivial issue makes me a bad parent

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I think they are simply doing it that way, to make the kids easier understand what the numbers behind the decimal means, so that it is easier for them to calculate with it.

While it might be totally needlessly for you, for a kids, being new to calculating with numbers behind decimal, it might be a help. As well that around 6th grade you are usually as well doing the stuff with parts of numbers so the way they are calling the numbers behind the decimal makes the kids maybe more aware that 3,625 are as well 3/1 and 6/10 and 2/100 and 5/1000 when you want to transform it into parts of numbers. Just as it makes you more obvious what procent and promille means and how you built them from numbers. Something that is as well normally around 6th grade.

I think there are multiple issues here:

1)His son getting dinged, grade-wise for something he knows and does in more mature way, but one that possibly leaves the teacher unsure if he knows what the more mature way means or maybe it is just teacher rigidity.

2)The discussion between Adamentium and his wife about it being stupid and whether it is appropriate to say so.

I don't know if they are equally aggravating or not.

Wow! You gave me an in-depth understanding of the workplace. Is this what they mean by being flexible and being a team player? If this is what they mean by these things then I could do it. I look at it like this. I may not have all of the facts my boss does or the point of view that my boss does. The boss has to look at his section of the organization as a whole. His boss has to take this section and look at other sections as a whole until one goes up to the CEO or commander of the whole thing.

For example, before my dad retired he used to work for the military. He wasn't in the military. They found a way to make certain people do their paper work faster. It was very successful. It increased production. There was a problem and that is the person who approved or denied these things became overwhelmed because the paperwork increased 10 fold. As a whole, it failed.


The thing is some things may be right but some things are more right. It is not true or false but how much true or false it is. I have the feeling that it is even more complex than this especially when one adds people's emotions and politics to the mix.

*This is to Adamantium*

Adamantium, I think I know what you're doing wrong. Even if you're correct I do believe it is your presentation that is at issue. It is not what you're saying, it is how you're saying it. All you really have to say is I don't agree with this because of x, y and z. Honestly, I don't agree with what you say. What I think they're trying to do is teach the children the concepts behind the 3 point 14. They're trying to teach what these positions represent.

Yes, mathematicians and scientists do say it in the 3 point 14 way but they understand the concepts. In this case and based upon my assessment of what you say, I actually agree with the school district and your wife.

I don't agree with calling anything stupid. I try to keep an open and objective mind about various things. I like to look at different ideas and examine them from different perspectives. Based upon what InThisTogether says, I am going to have to agree with her based upon my understanding of things.

For me, when I obtain answers to things they lead to more questions showing how ignorant of many things I am.

How do I really know when I am right on something? For me, this causes my overthinking issues and analysis paralysis.

I have been called wishy washy sometimes.

I would not call anything that is taught in school stupid, because that way, you are discouraging your kid to learn. Why spend time with stupid nonsense. Additional when its only about personal liking. So the father thinks, out of his personal oppinion, that there is not any benefit to naming numbers that way, that its stupid. I had the same discussion with a mother, who was angry, because of her kids being forced to waste her time in school to learn needless nonsense as greek sagas. For her it was stupid, that her kid needed to learn that, because of it not being of use for job skills. Which leads us to her personal oppinion, that schoold should only teach kids about stuff that is needed for nowadays jobs, and not try to teach them general knowledge and education. For me the knowledge of greek sagas lay behind the meaning of them. For the mum it was only some old greek fairytale stories without any sense. But if you look behind it, its a written document of the development of human social habbits.Just like the EDDA or the Bible it shows how tribes and people in early times lived together, what rules and laws they had, how law was done, ...

And a teacher has a full class of pupils that he needs to teach. So for him it is easier if they unify on one specific way to express those numbers, until he can be sure, that all of them have understood the meaning behind the numbers of the comma. If an pupil is doing a question and using the "normal" form of mentioning numbers behind a comma, while another one still does not understand the meaning, then the other student neither will understand the question of his costudent and so will as well have no use of the answer. As a teacher you simply must unify certain stuff, because if you would only waste 30 seconds of every lesson to the personal preference of an student, that makes 15 wasted minutes in a class of 30 pupils.

So if its for him easier to teach his class about numbers when all refer to them in the same way, and he says that from the two possible option to refer to them, he wants all of them to use a certain option, then it´s the students job to do so, and when they do otherwise, they are doing it wrong according to the teachers orders they were given.

Sorry, I can't agree with the rules-following, authority-respecting contingent.

Point of order: there are no Greek sagas, only plays. Sagas are a Viking form, unknown to Aeschylus.

I always encourage my children to learn. One if the things they are learning is that bureaucratic organizations often inadvertently force people into witless conduct as a result of difficulties in writing and interpreting rules.

I am all in favor of learning as much as possible about all subjects, but to tell a child that they are WRONG for using language correctly is the height of stupidity.

The concept is that numbers to the left are ten times larger, numbers to the right are one tenth as large, that's the only concept--the name is only useful when it is conventionally understood.

Mathematics is the set of concepts, not the way they are translated into non-mathematical language.

When the convention does not exist, no learning or value can come from imposing an arbitrary "correct" form.

For example, one of our posters here comes from a culture which uses the comma to indicate the decimal point. I come from a culture that uses a period to indicate the same thing. Neither is incorrect, though using a comma this way may lead to confusion in this country (the United States.)

Another example is the word billion. I the US it means 1 x 10^9. When I was a child in England, it meant 1 x 10^12. There was a similar difference in the meaning of trillion. As the US was the dominant power in the 20th century and produced the majority of scientific, mathematical and economic papers inthe English language, the British decided to adopt the American convention. Pragmatic adaptation.

The simple fact is that in everyday language people don't use the form required of sixth graders. Nor do they use that form in High School or any at level of University. Nor is it used in industry.

To tell a child that the form in used through the culture is wrong is really, really stupid.

To do it in the name of teaching a concept that the child already knows is absurd.

To attack the child in this way for the sake of some hypothetical benefit to another child in the class is unjust. Why should my son be punished for the benefit of another?

In any case, I don't believe this form has any pedagogical value. If there is one good study to back up this idea, I will cede the point and retract everything. I have never seen or heard of such a study, but ignorance is not evidence so I am ready concede that such could conceivably exist.

But I don't believe it. This has all the hallmarks of the pointless authoritarianism that is the bane of teaching. The goal is not learning but compliance. This may have been acceptable in a school system designed to prepare workers to be components in an industrial labor force. It makes no sense as a way of teaching young people facing the exponential rate of technological change of this era.

/polemic rant mode

EDITED to add:

My son has trouble writing

Requiring him to write "thirty nine and four thousand one hundred fifteen ten thousandths" rather than "thirty nine point zero four one one five" is not helpful to him. When the math is correct and the concept is understood, there can be no reason for this requirement. Except making and following rules for rules sake… something I find terminally stupid.

You did not read my post. If you have two valid options, and they are given the order and the job to use only one of the two possible options, and they use the other form, then they have done their JOB wrong. The answer might be correct, that does not change, that the job was done wrong. And in german greek sagas are called greek sagas, and its valid.

So what shall the teacher do with your child? Send it out of class, meanwhile he is still working with the kids, that did not get the concept yet? If you want the teacher to focus on what concepts your kid understood, get yourself a private teacher. An teacher, having a class full of kids, cant simply care for everyones individual understanding.



Ok, and what does this have to do, with the kids of ONE class having the same system? Different systems exist, but I think the math teacher in your class will have teached you in one system, and if one of your costudent would use another countries system, pointing out that this other coutnries system would be correct as well, your teacher would have told that student (probably in nicer word), that he dont gives a f**k about what elsewhere is done, but in his class only ONE system will be used by all students.

I dont know, if your son was trying to argue or discuss about it, I´d think the teacher may just have got angry about your son waisting the other students time of learning, out of no reason then being given the order to use a certain one of two correct forms, which is not really that hard to follow, and as well not worth, wasting education time of the whole class.

Arguing with your teacher about every piece of s**t, has much less use, because then you wont have any time left to teach anything, but waste all of the time with needless arguing of needless s**t. By doing so, you wont even manage to teach that kid enough math to get them classified as factory workers. ^^

Why did our math teacher tell us to let 4 squares of our math pages on the left side free for writing. So yes, he did so, that he could write comments on the left side, but according to that we could have done at well 5 or more squares free, because that would as well given the teacher some space for his comments, even more. So what mystical reason could our teacher have had to simply tell us to let 4 squares free from the left side, instead of doing and discussion about it, if each of us is understanding the concept of it or whatever....maybe he thought, that he could teach us in that time math instead. ^^

But you are writing in English, not German and in English Sagas are a Viking or Old Norse form, although we use the term metaphorically to mean any long, dramatic form. We don't use it to describe Greek drama.

Again, it's not the concept, but the language. Your concern for the other students who still have to learn the concept is purely imaginary.

Why?

This was not a problem in class but a written assignment. No disruption in class. No detriment to other students. No excuse for the rigid practice of this "teacher."

Merely to illustrate the idea that the mathematical truth and the naming convention are not one and the same.
I don't know why this imaginary disrupted class scenario holds any value for you, it has nothing to do with the case in point.

While the justifications that I see for the teacher are based on irrelevant hypotheticals and imaginary disruptions to the good order of the class, the harm that this did to my son was real and long lasting.

He was very angry that what he believed was correct was marked incorrect. The homework did not specify that the numbers were to be spelled out in the idiosyncratic system used in the class, just that they be spelled out.

My son perseverated on this for days. He tore up a notebook and destroyed a toy because he was outraged that something he knew (correctly) to be true was being marked false.

My son loves math, but hates his teacher. He does not trust his teacher. He said to me last night "I am really glad I am so good at science because I am not good at math anymore." His knowledge of math goes way beyond what they are learning, but this kind of petty bullish*t has poisoned the subject for him, hopefully not permanently.

There is no excuse for this, sorry.

Btw, I understand that culturally, Germans are taught to follow orders and obey authority. As a son of the great traditions of English Eccentricity and American Individualism, I don't follow orders or obey authority unless it makes sense or is expedient.

I am teaching my son the expediency part. For those of you who love rule following for its own sake, I can only say we must agree to disagree!

Adamantium,

I agree that getting something wrong which is technically not wrong *IS* stupid!

I agree that if something is stupid, one should be able to say it is stupid, or maybe a less inflammatory word if you can muster it at the time.

Did your son hear you call this stupid? If so, maybe talk to him and tell him that you got carried away with your verbiage, but you do think that the exercise is senseless and illogical. Tell him that there are times when society expects you to do irrational things, and sometimes it does make sense to do them even if they are nonsensical, simply because the teacher wants to make sure he's been paying attention to the details being taught. I think that if your son learned a specific pattern and had to show that he learned that pattern but did not, then I think he should understand WHY he got it marked wrong, but also to help him understand how technically it would not be wrong in a different setting.

You are not a bad parent. I agree, that getting it marked wrong was stupid. I think the teacher could have at least made a concession by not deducting a full point for it. But was the exercise in math concepts (specifically writing out in alphanumerics a numerical value) or solving math problems (what is the value of Pi)? There is a big difference there, and the answer would have to be adjusted to reflect knowledge of the specific lesson being taught.

So sorry you are in a quibble about this. I don't think you should worry too much about it. All husbands and wives can't stand each other's thinking from time to time. LOL

I am also regarded at work as very flexible. But the trouble here is that the educational approach chosen by the teacher is running across an absolute sense of right and wrong for me. It is a huge effort on my part not to make a serious attempt to change the curriculum over this. Only the very sad cost/benefit calculation is keeping me back.

This is a learning opportunity, but it's so hard to see my son getting angry about this and to feel the same anger in myself and then have to tell him it's OK that they did this to him, and he should just go along with it and accept that sometimes authority gets to redefine truth.

I am sure when you have people on your team go along with a certain way of doing things, it is never the equivalent of this absurdity.

Though it is true that bureaucracy does inevitably create this kind of situation and we all do have to learn to swallow it down.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Excellent advice, thanks Mikassyna.

I am now taking a deep breath, and getting back to work!

I did not mean drama...there is a certain specification for what a drama is, and the meaning is similar in english and german. ^^ "Drama is the specific mode of fiction represented in performance.[1] The term comes from a Greek word meaning "action" (Classical Greek: δρᾶμα, drama), which is derived from the verb meaning "to do" or "to act" (Classical Greek: δράω, draō)."

Additional, we are not in an authority relationship, so in opposition to your son I DONT need to care for your personal likings but can choose on my own, if I want to respect them. ^^

Because of the non imaginary issues that you reported here, that your son was so disturbed by his teacher wanting him to use a certain form of number expression. So if the teacher wants that, and its such an horrible torture for your son to sit in a class, that uses this form of expression, which alternative do you see, that your son is not confronted with his horrible class habbits? Ear plugs?

Yop, but the work order that was given to the class by their teacher was one and the same. ^^ If their teacher tells them, that the homework schoolbooks hall have a blue cover, and your kid gives him his homework schoolbook in an red cover, the job task is done wrong. There can be 100% correct answers in the book, but still the job task is done wrong. And if the teacher tells the kids to show every step of math result they do, and he dont, then the job is as well done wrong.

As written now for the third time, the answer may have not been wrong, but the job your son was given, was done wrong. Your son was given the job to use ONE certain form of two possible form to express words. He did not.

It has everything to do with the scenario. Its not the teachers job to comfort everyones parents personal oppinion or to teach according to everyones parents politicial thinking or to educate your kid to become a freemind or an factory worker. Its his job to use as much time as he can on teaching math and on nothing else. Every minute the teacher wastes for everything else is wasted.

HIS job is to teach your kid 1+1. Your job is to educate your kid, how he shall use that, to become a surpressed factory worker or a free minded journalist or whatever.



Then goddamn, simply start explaining him, that the answer of the teacher was not toward the answer, but toward the job task. Yes, his answer was correct, but the job task he was given was not done correctly. By refusing yourself the acceptance of different possibilities and job tasks and insisting yourself of "the ultimate math truths that all must be respected in school", you are only enhancing his angerness and do not make him understand the situation, which would help him to ease and understand that his teacher simply has referred the form he used to express his answer was wrong, GIVEN TO THE TEACHERS JOB TASK, and not in an global or general way.

You have two options: Venting with him and convincing yourself and him to insist that all true options must be accepted by everyone, anyway in which form and that authority persons do not have the right to insist on using a certain way to express numbers, in the lections given by that authority persons. And then you can vent until all eternity together, and curse the fate that you are given to endure.

Or you simply tell him, that this is simply his math teachers personal oppinion about the lections, that does not make it any sort of ultimate truth, but something that he should respect as long as he is in his lections, while he can do as he like outside of them and as well that he wont be anyway only for some years with that math teacher.

And YES this is optional. I DO NOT vent around for days, because of you disagreeing with me about greek sagas. I simply dont care for it. And if there was a forum rule of the authority of this forum, telling me that any usage of german expression is not to be used in english written form, I´´d care for it, and done with it.

Its not the teacher being able to chose, if you want to vent around that issues for days, ITS YOU that can decide about that. The teacher is not responsible for you choosing to vent about that, when you can as well simply give a f**k about it, tell your kid, that teachers are non-prefect humans as well, and that to prevent further conflicts, he simply shall care for doing the given job tasks in school, while he is totally free to do as he want at home.

Its nothing else like the chewing gum stuff. Yes according to scientific research, chewing gum, enhances concentration abilities. But if the teachers says, that he dont want students to chew chewing gum during his lections, then simply dont waste your time about that, spit it out, and go on after the one hour the lection lasts. Or you can choose to vent about the ignorance of the scientific knowledge endlessly, if you think its worth the topic.

We are simply sons of the great tradition of: Its the teachers job to teach math, thats why math teachers are called math teachers, and as a parents job it is mine to teach my kid, how that knowledge he learns in school, then wants to use in his own life. Its YOUR kid, not that of your teacher, so if you want to educate your kid to think in a certain way, thats absolutely fine, but its not of the schools bothering, simply because every parent would want his kid to be educated in another way due to their personal oppinions, so the best option to solve that prob is the school simply focusing on teaching knowledge, as it is their job as school and you focusing on your kid educating the way you want, as it is your job as parent.

How should a teacher be able to respect 30 different oppinions according to education and teaching style in a class of 30 pupils? Change his teaching style every 2 minutes, so that every kids parents can be happy, that the way he would like the teacher doing his job was respected? Or should he only care for your oppinion, because of your being the only true one? O_o

Seems dumb. I never had to do this and yet as an adult I'm an analytical chemist who routine works all the way out the the hundred thousandth position (or wetf you call it haha).

Stupid.

REgardless, if that is how the school teaches it, that is how they teach it. There is some value in teachinga child to just go with the flow and not rock the boat even if the boat looks stupid.

Is this the teacher deciding what to teach, or the syllabus he is required to teach?

Either way something or someone is at fault, because teaching a system that will eventually need to be unlearned is a complete waste of student time, and will eventually lead to confusion. You have every right to express your dissatisfaction about that.

Good on you for taking an interest in what your own children are being taught, instead of unquestioningly passing off as much responsibility regarding their upbringing as possible, to a school system that is quite clearly in need of revision.


I myself am in a similar situation, where I will be downgraded for using the American spelling for the words 'color' and 'center' in essays. While I'm in the UK and that is not how they are traditionally spelled here, if I was to get into the habit of spelling them 'colour' and 'centre', then that would be incorrect everywhere that they are used in computer code (my field of study), and could lead to more time being spent fixing errors due to what is a bad habit.

I see no reason whatsoever to perpetuate redundant systems, where the alternative is the correct form to use in literally every other circumstance.

It's not just stupid, it's backwards and obsolete.

Thank you CWA and Polarity. It's always so nice when people are right! (AKA share MY viewpoint!)

Actually, thanks to everyone who replied, even those who twitch toward "the teacher must be right" -- it's been interesting seeing this through other minds.

For the English/American spelling thing, I know this only too well. My family moved from the UK to the US just before I went to high school and I was endlessly getting bad marks for colour, centre, valour and, of course, aluminium. I found it very hard to keep it straight so i wrote a little program to replace all my spelling in a text file with the correct American form and used that whenever I had to turn in a big essay. Then it was just a matter of resentful care at exam time.

Good luck!

To satisfy the wife, some colorful, alternative terminology to use in the future:

Preposterous
Ridiculous
Inane
Insane
Incomprehensible
Antediluvian (love that one)
Repugnant
Disgusting
Horrific
Daft
Fascist

etc., etc...

Well, at least you avoid the dreaded "S" word

I remember I was in a "gifted" science program at school, and thus figured that the teacher of the class would be thusly intelligent. But I remember to this day, about 30 years later, this so-called teacher marked an answer wrong that I knew was right! It was a homework assignment on gradients (earth science) and my father, who is a professional engineer whose specialty was to work with such concepts in his every day career, checked my homework. I was angry when the teacher marked it wrong. I went back to my father, angry at HIM, for checking my answer as right when it was wrong, and he remained firm that my answer was right and the teacher was wrong. I went to the teacher and argued, but she stood firm and didn't change my grade. To this day, I remember this and am still angry over it LOL (do you hear that, Ms. Connolly?!) But, I don't let it bother me anymore. I just brush it off to the teacher being a flake. In fact, this was later corroborated by other kids in my class, that the teacher was a total ditz and was not qualified to teach our class.

Hopefully your son will come to the same conclusion in the future, and that enough positive life experiences to come will overshadow this one negative experience. The best lesson you can teach your son is to not let this one experience affect him so greatly that he deteriorates in his academic performance over it. One incorrect answer will not fail him out of the class, unless he perseverates on it so much that he will no longer be able to function in the class and learn. And that is really an even bigger lesson that you can try to work with him on, to not get so derailed over one disputed answer.