Forced to do ABA training before my daughter can get help
Sweetleaf
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01 Sep 2014, 6:38 am
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I think I see where you are confused.
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
Yes just like a dog...do this and you get a treat, don't do this and don't get a treat....and if you don't do it because you cant or its very difficult and you cannot figure out how or where to start oh well still no treat(except with dogs people are a bit more understanding and might still give them a treat for the effort).....Not that there is anything wrong with dogs but autistic people are not dogs.
_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.
01 Sep 2014, 10:38 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I think I see where you are confused.
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
Yes just like a dog...do this and you get a treat, don't do this and don't get a treat....and if you don't do it because you cant or its very difficult and you cannot figure out how or where to start oh well still no treat(except with dogs people are a bit more understanding and might still give them a treat for the effort).....Not that there is anything wrong with dogs but autistic people are not dogs.
No, not like a dog. Like a child. It's no different than giving an NT child a sticker for correct answers on schoolwork. But since you disagree with tangible treats for desired behaviour, how would you encourage this girl to sing in music class? It's already been established that verbal praise decreases her desire to sing, so what can we do to motivate her?
_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's - 2007
Current AQ score: 43
Current PDD score: 105 - moderate
http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html
-Socially awkward and special interests don't mean autism.-
01 Sep 2014, 11:42 am
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I think I see where you are confused.
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
Yes just like a dog...do this and you get a treat, don't do this and don't get a treat....and if you don't do it because you cant or its very difficult and you cannot figure out how or where to start oh well still no treat(except with dogs people are a bit more understanding and might still give them a treat for the effort).....Not that there is anything wrong with dogs but autistic people are not dogs.
No, not like a dog. Like a child. It's no different than giving an NT child a sticker for correct answers on schoolwork. But since you disagree with tangible treats for desired behaviour, how would you encourage this girl to sing in music class? It's already been established that verbal praise decreases her desire to sing, so what can we do to motivate her?
The girl in music class is from a video in the OP's ABA training class. She is not the OP's daughter.
01 Sep 2014, 12:44 pm
Quote:
That said, the token part is a very small part of the whole picture: we had to troubleshoot the whole morning routine to make sure we addressed all the things that were causing him to fail. We finally turned a corner when we realized we had to deal with his anxiety about starting the day, and we struggled with that until a member here suggested giving him a sheet of bubble wrap to pop in the car on the way to school, which alleviated the perseverating and anxiety. It took a lot of detective work, questions and suggestions to finally figure that out. (Also, addressing the problems in school that caused him to dread it was a big thing, but that was a long-term thing that was finally solved by going to middle school, where the staff had a clue.) The FBA helped us pinpoint the act of leaving the house and getting into the car as the place where we needed an intervention.
This is what I think most AS/HFA kids need -- not so much the stickers/token charts/etc., but someone to really analyze and figure out specifically what is making life so difficult and to help solve those problems. Our one attempt with a therapist who specialized in ABA and CBT didn't provide that (her initial focus seemed to be identifying emotions on cartoon faces), and I don't know how hard it is to find someone who does. We also had a really lousy FBA done at school, where the psychologist had the teacher fill out a questionnaire and then her report proclaimed that DS was primarily motivated by "wanting desired objects". Yeah, not specific or helpful at all.
Still, I think it's worth plowing through the training so that you can at least give the therapy that is available a try.
Sweetleaf
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Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
01 Sep 2014, 12:46 pm
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I think I see where you are confused.
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
Yes just like a dog...do this and you get a treat, don't do this and don't get a treat....and if you don't do it because you cant or its very difficult and you cannot figure out how or where to start oh well still no treat(except with dogs people are a bit more understanding and might still give them a treat for the effort).....Not that there is anything wrong with dogs but autistic people are not dogs.
No, not like a dog. Like a child. It's no different than giving an NT child a sticker for correct answers on schoolwork. But since you disagree with tangible treats for desired behaviour, how would you encourage this girl to sing in music class? It's already been established that verbal praise decreases her desire to sing, so what can we do to motivate her?
In that senerio unless there is a reason she cannot sing in class then yes potential rewards can work. I was talking more about trying to stop autistic behaviors by giving the child a 'treat' when they don't exibit an autistic treat and withholding it when they do so they get the messenge their natural state/behavior is always wrong and good things only come from trying to act normal. In retrospect I find dog training much more humane since they aren't training the dog not to act like a dog, just training it in such a way the dog and its owner can co-exist....Also though rewards/withoholding of rewards really can only work on small children or well dogs and I am not entirely opposed if the approach works however the person doing this behavior training or whatever should be wary of trying to punish natural unharmful traits/behaviors the person has just because they are 'abnormal'...that was more my point like rewarding an autistic kid if they don't stim and either withoholding positive reinforcement or penalizing the behavior is not something I'd agree with...then likely stress will build up making a meltdown more likely which of course they'd get negative re-reinforcement for having a meltdown to.
_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.
01 Sep 2014, 1:45 pm
ASDmommyASDkid wrote:
The girl in music class is from a video in the OP's ABA training class. She is not the OP's daughter.
I was being hypothetical. I created an example from the hypothetical situation posed on the video.
Sweetleaf wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I think I see where you are confused.
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
The psychological definition of punishment is something that decreases the likelihood of a given behaviour (like singing in music class). Adversely, reinforcement is something that increases the likelihood of a given behavior. And the terms positive and negative mean adding something (like praise in this case) and subtracting something (like a desired object), respectively.
So for this girl, being praised was positive punishment because something was added (the praise) and the behaviour decreased. I would think that means the girl does not like being singled out for praise or even one-on-one after class because it makes her uncomfortable. Therefore, that teacher should find something the girl wants (most easily, a treat like candy) so she will exhibit the behaviour (singing) more often in order to get the positive reinforcement (leading to an increase in the desired behaviour).
Yes just like a dog...do this and you get a treat, don't do this and don't get a treat....and if you don't do it because you cant or its very difficult and you cannot figure out how or where to start oh well still no treat(except with dogs people are a bit more understanding and might still give them a treat for the effort).....Not that there is anything wrong with dogs but autistic people are not dogs.
No, not like a dog. Like a child. It's no different than giving an NT child a sticker for correct answers on schoolwork. But since you disagree with tangible treats for desired behaviour, how would you encourage this girl to sing in music class? It's already been established that verbal praise decreases her desire to sing, so what can we do to motivate her?
In that senerio unless there is a reason she cannot sing in class then yes potential rewards can work. I was talking more about trying to stop autistic behaviors by giving the child a 'treat' when they don't exibit an autistic treat and withholding it when they do so they get the messenge their natural state/behavior is always wrong and good things only come from trying to act normal. In retrospect I find dog training much more humane since they aren't training the dog not to act like a dog, just training it in such a way the dog and its owner can co-exist....Also though rewards/withoholding of rewards really can only work on small children or well dogs and I am not entirely opposed if the approach works however the person doing this behavior training or whatever should be wary of trying to punish natural unharmful traits/behaviors the person has just because they are 'abnormal'...that was more my point like rewarding an autistic kid if they don't stim and either withoholding positive reinforcement or penalizing the behavior is not something I'd agree with...then likely stress will build up making a meltdown more likely which of course they'd get negative re-reinforcement for having a meltdown to.
Where did I say stop the kid/person from acting autistic? I understand there are some ABA therapists who do that however I disagree with that particular practice. I realise stimming is often necessary and don't stop the girl I work with from doing it unless it is harmful. In which case, I try to replace it with a non-harmful stim.
_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's - 2007
Current AQ score: 43
Current PDD score: 105 - moderate
http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html
-Socially awkward and special interests don't mean autism.-
11 Sep 2014, 6:34 pm
hmmm?your brain is probably wired the same as your child's. I have seen MANY therapists who claim to teach kids with autism, yet all they are doing is TRYING to teach kids with autism the way a "neurotypical" child would understand things. If it's hard for you to even understand their ABA view, imagine what it will be like for your child.
Look for other options. Read and get information from other autistics to help you teach your child. I was told my son should take ABA 8 years ago. I checked it out and I could not understand why they were doing the things they were doing and many to me felt incredibly cruel. He has never taken an hour of ABA and has progressed immensely without it. I listened to autistics NOT to "experts" that were never autistic. It was the best gift to my son.
Great, great, great book!! !
12 Sep 2014, 2:15 pm
Thanks whatamess - It is so true that autistics are the best at helping me understand my daughter - I have read quite a few books by autistics and they were the most helpful for sure. I just want to try the ABA to see if they can provide her with coping skills to help her calm down and for options for her sister and I to help her.
