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Do you think sometimes really bright people are misdiagnosed

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DW_a_mom
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24 Mar 2009, 11:47 am

EnglishLulu wrote:
One of the potential problems though, is that with their 'hyper-logic' Aspies can also think through situations and come to some, erm, interesting conclusions. You mention your son not being able to remember to hand in assignments. When I was in high school, I used to just not bother. With my own Aspie logic, I reasoned that teachers set assignments to consolidate class learning, that's what they told us was the purpose of homework, but in my case, I had an almost photographic memory and used to come top of the class, top of the year, in many subjects regardless of the effort I put in. Now, most 'normal' children, NTs, if they hadn't done their homework, they would lie or invent excuses, the dog ate my homework, my mom put it in the washing machine by mistake or whatever, but me, not being able to lie, I used to just tell the teachers 'I haven't done it' and they didn't know how to deal with this. To me, I was being honest and straightforward, but from the teachers' perspectives, they must have found my behaviour belligerent, and challenging their authority, so they didn't quite know how to deal with me. And they couldn't point to my exam results - look, you need to do your homework or else you'll fail your exams, because in my case, I didn't really need to do homework to consolidate what was taught and learned in class.


I'm curious, since my son has the same issue as berryblondeboys' does, how would you have handled this if homework had been an integral part of your grade? All of my son's homework is graded; without it, he cannot pass. He complains about this to no end, for the logic of it totally escapes him, but he doesn't want bad grades so he knows he has to do it.


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equinn
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24 Mar 2009, 11:47 am

Ditto on the discrepency. One way of distinguishing between gifted and Aspergers is the discrepency between nonverbal and verbal scores. It is most times quite significant 20 or more points. With Aspergers, it is nonverbal that is lower. With HFA, it is the opposite. Without this discrepency, otherwise, you simply have a high IQ, possibly gifted kid who has lots of intellectual energy that needs to be channeled properly. If it's not, then this gifted kid is labeled ADHD and put on meds. Tragic scenerio, to medicate a gifted child who is scoring higher than 95-99 percent of our population. These kids deserve private tutors. They are societies' greatest commodity and so underappreciated. I would get him involved in gifted camps, John Hopkins, MENSA, and make sure he's mixing with equally gifted peers. This can cause a problem, if the child is on a different intellectual plane. What might have happened had we medicated Einstein or Ben Franklin or Bill Gates? We are a better society for these great thinkers. Why stifle them, make the loyal soldiers when it goes against their grain!
High spirited kids needs appreciation, Aspergers or not.

High intelligence kids require a different approach. They won't fit into the mainstream curriculum, and this is why they are antsy! If you go to hoagies website, you'll find plenty of info. Below is the link:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/parents.htm



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24 Mar 2009, 2:36 pm

malya2006 wrote:
hi berryblondeboys,

I did read somewhere that gifted children resemble children who have asd. u should research gifted kids, maybe your son resembles that more than asd. my son has never taken an iq test but i know that he also scored very high in certain areas but was a little delayed in other areas.



I think the reason why gifted children resemble children who have asd is because a lot of those gifted kids DO have ASD. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it's a spectrum - some high, some low, and no two kids with it will ever be exactly the same. Just as it is for anybody. :)

I've always said that being "gifted" or testing into the gifted program at school isn't just about being smart. Gifted kids just think DIFFERENTLY in general. A little "out of the box", so to speak. (sound familiar?) I know of what I speak when it comes to being gifted - I was in the GATE program from kindergarten to high school graduation. :lol: I definitely am not on the spectrum, but on the same token I do have a lot of the same traits as my son. My husband, who was never in the GATE program at school but is very intelligent in his own right and is now an electrical engineer, exhibits other traits that my son has. Put the two of us together and we ended up with our son! :)



berryblondeboys
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24 Mar 2009, 10:17 pm

equinn wrote:
Ditto on the discrepency. One way of distinguishing between gifted and Aspergers is the discrepency between nonverbal and verbal scores. It is most times quite significant 20 or more points. With Aspergers, it is nonverbal that is lower. With HFA, it is the opposite. Without this discrepency, otherwise, you simply have a high IQ, possibly gifted kid who has lots of intellectual energy that needs to be channeled properly. If it's not, then this gifted kid is labeled ADHD and put on meds. Tragic scenerio, to medicate a gifted child who is scoring higher than 95-99 percent of our population. These kids deserve private tutors. They are societies' greatest commodity and so underappreciated. I would get him involved in gifted camps, John Hopkins, MENSA, and make sure he's mixing with equally gifted peers. This can cause a problem, if the child is on a different intellectual plane. What might have happened had we medicated Einstein or Ben Franklin or Bill Gates? We are a better society for these great thinkers. Why stifle them, make the loyal soldiers when it goes against their grain!
High spirited kids needs appreciation, Aspergers or not.

High intelligence kids require a different approach. They won't fit into the mainstream curriculum, and this is why they are antsy! If you go to hoagies website, you'll find plenty of info. Below is the link:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/parents.htm


And that's why we resisted the ADHD label for YEARS. I'm very familiar with Hoagies site - it was my bible site for my non asperger son. He is truly gifted, but he TRULY has ADHD. The difference in taking meds and no meds is HUGE, HUGE, HUGE with him. He is now more confident, his peers treat him better (because ADHD has to do with impulse control too), his grades went up and he can follow through better. Now, he's still terrible with remembering things, still terrible with organization, still terrible about following more than one step directions at a time, but he was really not functioning before that. It was actually WORSE when he was only in a pull out Gifted program (what a waste - that isn't gifted education, that's just to appease parents). He did better and felt better once he started a full time gifted program. Every core class is gifted honors and it's WONDERFUL for him. but he does have ADHD and the drugs are helping him reach a better potential because it does help. With that said, I think at least half the people diagnosed with ADHD do not have it.



EnglishLulu
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27 Mar 2009, 8:14 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
One of the potential problems though, is that with their 'hyper-logic' Aspies can also think through situations and come to some, erm, interesting conclusions. You mention your son not being able to remember to hand in assignments. When I was in high school, I used to just not bother. With my own Aspie logic, I reasoned that teachers set assignments to consolidate class learning, that's what they told us was the purpose of homework, but in my case, I had an almost photographic memory and used to come top of the class, top of the year, in many subjects regardless of the effort I put in. Now, most 'normal' children, NTs, if they hadn't done their homework, they would lie or invent excuses, the dog ate my homework, my mom put it in the washing machine by mistake or whatever, but me, not being able to lie, I used to just tell the teachers 'I haven't done it' and they didn't know how to deal with this. To me, I was being honest and straightforward, but from the teachers' perspectives, they must have found my behaviour belligerent, and challenging their authority, so they didn't quite know how to deal with me. And they couldn't point to my exam results - look, you need to do your homework or else you'll fail your exams, because in my case, I didn't really need to do homework to consolidate what was taught and learned in class.


I'm curious, since my son has the same issue as berryblondeboys' does, how would you have handled this if homework had been an integral part of your grade? All of my son's homework is graded; without it, he cannot pass. He complains about this to no end, for the logic of it totally escapes him, but he doesn't want bad grades so he knows he has to do it.
Oh, I think I would have b!tched and griped about it, but I would have done it (in fact my art exam was coursework based, we had to create a portfolio, so I did that).

I would have moaned because it's my understanding that when I was at school, exam grades used to be the be all and end all. But they changed the system and made it more coursework based, because some pupils weren't so good at exams. My gripe would be based on why should I have to spend hours every week doing coursework, just because some idiots couldn't pass exams? :roll: (Because I had no problem passing exams with high grades after doing little or no homework, and either not revising or simply flicking through my book the night before the exam, and I was sometimes *that* precocious in my thinking! :oops: )



DW_a_mom
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27 Mar 2009, 8:56 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
My gripe would be based on why should I have to spend hours every week doing coursework, just because some idiots couldn't pass exams? :roll:


I love this comment, I can TOTALLY hear my son saying that ... if anyone ever explains to him WHY homework has become such a large part of the grade. I hadn't thought of it that way, and I've just been answering "I don't know" or "they must believe kids learn better this way" as we face things that are so different from when I was in school.


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Zonder
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27 Mar 2009, 9:24 pm

A short quote from a paper I just finished that will be published later this year.

David A. Sousa has noted, “It is sometimes difficult to separate high functioning individuals with mild autism from those who are gifted because they share many similar traits (Sousa, How the Gifted Brain Learns, p. 219).”

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berryblondeboys
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28 Mar 2009, 8:51 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
My gripe would be based on why should I have to spend hours every week doing coursework, just because some idiots couldn't pass exams? :roll:


I love this comment, I can TOTALLY hear my son saying that ... if anyone ever explains to him WHY homework has become such a large part of the grade. I hadn't thought of it that way, and I've just been answering "I don't know" or "they must believe kids learn better this way" as we face things that are so different from when I was in school.


My son last quarter got a D+ in Honors History because the new teacher didn't post homework on blackboard and my son kept forgetting to a. pick up the homework. b. bring home the homework. c. remember that homework was even assigned and d. if he did bring it home, do it, remembered to take it back to school, he forgot to hand it in and the teach docks two letter grades for late work (can you say, "New teacher?")

So... he was COMPLETELY MISSING 70 points of his grade, but he still had above a 70 percent in the class (D+'s are 73 percent and below). How? because he had above 90% on all his exams and in class work.

There is no excuse for him not getting his work done, this is true, but isn't the whole point that he is learning the material and if he is getting As on the test, doesn't that mean he's 'getting it"? And the last two years on the state's standards of learning tests he's gotten a perfect score on History - despite it being the subject he LOATHES and is always his lowest grade.

Ok.. just my bellyache for my non aspie kid.... just reallllllly strong ADHD.



berryblondeboys
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28 Mar 2009, 8:55 am

Zonder wrote:
A short quote from a paper I just finished that will be published later this year.

David A. Sousa has noted, “It is sometimes difficult to separate high functioning individuals with mild autism from those who are gifted because they share many similar traits (Sousa, How the Gifted Brain Learns, p. 219).”

Z


But some are both, right? I'm pretty sure when my 3 year old is old enough to get tested for gifted ed in our school system that he'll be put in it because he is showing all the same signs my oldest son did and earlier and my older son is in gifted ed.

Maybe it's hard to differentiate because some are BOTH and can't be differentiated? I'm no expert, but it's all tied somewhat together.



Zonder
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28 Mar 2009, 2:16 pm

berryblondeboys wrote:
But some are both, right? I'm pretty sure when my 3 year old is old enough to get tested for gifted ed in our school system that he'll be put in it because he is showing all the same signs my oldest son did and earlier and my older son is in gifted ed.

Maybe it's hard to differentiate because some are BOTH and can't be differentiated? I'm no expert, but it's all tied somewhat together.


Absolutely some are both. The term I've seen used for gifted with an autism spectrum disorder is "twice-exceptional". There is quite a bit of information on the Internet if you search the term "twice-exceptional".

Z



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28 Mar 2009, 4:02 pm

berryblondeboys wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
My gripe would be based on why should I have to spend hours every week doing coursework, just because some idiots couldn't pass exams? :roll:


I love this comment, I can TOTALLY hear my son saying that ... if anyone ever explains to him WHY homework has become such a large part of the grade. I hadn't thought of it that way, and I've just been answering "I don't know" or "they must believe kids learn better this way" as we face things that are so different from when I was in school.


My son last quarter got a D+ in Honors History because the new teacher didn't post homework on blackboard and my son kept forgetting to a. pick up the homework. b. bring home the homework. c. remember that homework was even assigned and d. if he did bring it home, do it, remembered to take it back to school, he forgot to hand it in and the teach docks two letter grades for late work (can you say, "New teacher?")

So... he was COMPLETELY MISSING 70 points of his grade, but he still had above a 70 percent in the class (D+'s are 73 percent and below). How? because he had above 90% on all his exams and in class work.

There is no excuse for him not getting his work done, this is true, but isn't the whole point that he is learning the material and if he is getting As on the test, doesn't that mean he's 'getting it"? And the last two years on the state's standards of learning tests he's gotten a perfect score on History - despite it being the subject he LOATHES and is always his lowest grade.

Ok.. just my bellyache for my non aspie kid.... just reallllllly strong ADHD.




Why not call the teacher on it. Tell him/her that you'd like to meet and then ask to review grading policy. She/he has to ahve something documenting procedures for grading. Homework should be small percent of grade, maybe 10% or a bi thigher sometimes. So, it doesn't make sense if your son is acing tests which should carry much more weight that he would have a D. Maybe he is missing a project? Something he is not telling you about? A project would be more weight for obvious reasons.
Again, sit and talk to teacher, ask for a printed copy of progress report so you can see what's missing, what's due, and percentage of assignments/weight for each. It's your right to do to this and teachers have to provide documentation. No more subjective grading in the 21st century.



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28 Mar 2009, 4:25 pm

Equinn, it is quite normal now for schools around here to have 2/3 or more of the grade come from completing homework on time. It is a policy that IS biased against kids with AS, not that anyone intended it to be, and also biased against boys in general, since the science shows boys are developmentally behind girls in most of the school years and lacking the ability - developmentally - to hold strong organizational skills. They catch up by adulthood, by the damage will have already been done. I think it's crazy, my son thinks it crazy, but it is what we are stuck with, and the reason that I now have to devote 1 to 2 hours a day to my son's homework. I keep it organized, I check for assignments on the internet, I make sure he knows exactly where everything is filed so he'll have an easier time remembering to turn it in, I keep his pencils stocked and sharpened, and so on. Without that, he'd be flunking. With it, he's on the honor roll. He has no issue at all with the material; it's dotting the i's and crossing the t's of teacher expectations that he has trouble with. It angers me to no end, and I'm doing my best to get on committees, etc., to look at and change these policies in my son's school, but it's like trying to hold a single sandbag against the flood at times. There HAS to be a better balance that works more fairly for the student population as a whole. It is absolutely crazy that I need to be this involved in the homework of a bright child who loves to learn.

OH, and you'll LOVE this one: 10 - 25% of homework grade (depending on the teacher) comes from ME remembering to sign his homework cover sheet. Why the heck are they assigning ME homework? If I forget to sign, the best he can get in some classes is a "C." How anyone can consider that fair or necessary is utterly and completely beyond me.


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28 Mar 2009, 4:51 pm

Want to say all other classes he's doing fine, but this one class got a new teacher at semester and he's the only one not using the blackboard online for assignments. I have emailed the teacher and basically told him he is required to use blackboard for assignments and CCed the guidance counselor. He still made honor roll DESPITE this one lousy grade...



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04 Apr 2009, 12:34 pm

I think it can work the other way round, as well: a very bright, very verbal person with AS is usually going to be better and more quickly able to camouflage his social difficulties.

Here's an interesting article on the relationship between AS and giftedness, with a comparison checklist:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10167.aspx



equinn
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05 Apr 2009, 8:38 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
One of the potential problems though, is that with their 'hyper-logic' Aspies can also think through situations and come to some, erm, interesting conclusions. You mention your son not being able to remember to hand in assignments. When I was in high school, I used to just not bother. With my own Aspie logic, I reasoned that teachers set assignments to consolidate class learning, that's what they told us was the purpose of homework, but in my case, I had an almost photographic memory and used to come top of the class, top of the year, in many subjects regardless of the effort I put in. Now, most 'normal' children, NTs, if they hadn't done their homework, they would lie or invent excuses, the dog ate my homework, my mom put it in the washing machine by mistake or whatever, but me, not being able to lie, I used to just tell the teachers 'I haven't done it' and they didn't know how to deal with this. To me, I was being honest and straightforward, but from the teachers' perspectives, they must have found my behaviour belligerent, and challenging their authority, so they didn't quite know how to deal with me. And they couldn't point to my exam results - look, you need to do your homework or else you'll fail your exams, because in my case, I didn't really need to do homework to consolidate what was taught and learned in class.


I'm curious, since my son has the same issue as berryblondeboys' does, how would you have handled this if homework had been an integral part of your grade? All of my son's homework is graded; without it, he cannot pass. He complains about this to no end, for the logic of it totally escapes him, but he doesn't want bad grades so he knows he has to do it.



You can get accomodations for homework if it's a major problem at home. I would consider this if I were you. A good teacher makes necessary accomodations and is not so rigid in his/her grading policy. Homework incompletion should never result in a failing grade. Weight should be on tests/quizzes, classwork and participation and projects/writing. Homework might be 10%. It could be that the homework is a long term project, take home quiz or other. Then, the grade is weighted much higher and falls under a different category that accounts for more of the grade. Definitely look into the accomodations for your son, especially if he's so smart but failing due to homework! How absurd.



DW_a_mom
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06 Apr 2009, 12:03 pm

equinn wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
One of the potential problems though, is that with their 'hyper-logic' Aspies can also think through situations and come to some, erm, interesting conclusions. You mention your son not being able to remember to hand in assignments. When I was in high school, I used to just not bother. With my own Aspie logic, I reasoned that teachers set assignments to consolidate class learning, that's what they told us was the purpose of homework, but in my case, I had an almost photographic memory and used to come top of the class, top of the year, in many subjects regardless of the effort I put in. Now, most 'normal' children, NTs, if they hadn't done their homework, they would lie or invent excuses, the dog ate my homework, my mom put it in the washing machine by mistake or whatever, but me, not being able to lie, I used to just tell the teachers 'I haven't done it' and they didn't know how to deal with this. To me, I was being honest and straightforward, but from the teachers' perspectives, they must have found my behaviour belligerent, and challenging their authority, so they didn't quite know how to deal with me. And they couldn't point to my exam results - look, you need to do your homework or else you'll fail your exams, because in my case, I didn't really need to do homework to consolidate what was taught and learned in class.


I'm curious, since my son has the same issue as berryblondeboys' does, how would you have handled this if homework had been an integral part of your grade? All of my son's homework is graded; without it, he cannot pass. He complains about this to no end, for the logic of it totally escapes him, but he doesn't want bad grades so he knows he has to do it.



You can get accomodations for homework if it's a major problem at home. I would consider this if I were you. A good teacher makes necessary accomodations and is not so rigid in his/her grading policy. Homework incompletion should never result in a failing grade. Weight should be on tests/quizzes, classwork and participation and projects/writing. Homework might be 10%. It could be that the homework is a long term project, take home quiz or other. Then, the grade is weighted much higher and falls under a different category that accounts for more of the grade. Definitely look into the accomodations for your son, especially if he's so smart but failing due to homework! How absurd.


Awe, here's the rub: the district special ed specialist is ADAMANT about NOT giving homework accomodations on work volume in ADVANCED classes, theory being the "accomodation" is to leave the advanced class and return to "on level." At least she did tell the teacher that zeros for illegible work was unacceptable; if you can't read it, ask the child to read it to you.

The law can be your friend, or it can be the shield held against you.


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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).