Devastated - please help!

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Mental retardation=IQ below 70. This is not related to social skills.

You said you understand AS. People with AS have normal to above average intelligence.

Why are you confusing AS with other forms of autism?

Here is a definition of MR that I found.

There are three criteria to determine if a child has a form of mental retardation. The first is the child must have an IQ of below 70. The second is that child must have trouble in adaptive behavior such as communication, self-help, and behavior. The third is the child must display these symptoms before they are 18 years of age.

From this web site.

http://www.askdeb.com/health/retardation/

How old is your son now, DW a mom?

Well...I will give you an example: if his sister wants to play with one of his toys for just a second, he goes crazy. When I probe about this he says in a whiny, push-your-buttons kind of tone (not rational, communicative tone):
"but if I let her touch it, she will think it is heeeers" (whine).

We explained to him many times, with vivid, logical examples, that person A touching person B's property does not mean said property becomes person B's.

I have come to a point where I sincerely do not know whether he says such things to annoy me (out of frustration that things don't go his way) or simply because he is unintelligent in this respect. He does sound like he wants to annoy but sometimes I have doubts. People would have to see him in action to realize it is likely something said out of stress and frustration but I am starting to not be sure anymore..

He knows intellectually that just because a child touches your toy does not mean that a transfer of ownership happens.
And yet, he acts as if his mind cannot comprehend that.

Yesterday he was playing soccer with the neighbor's child and that child was, of course, dominating him with the dribbling and the works. That child took the ball from him a few times and in a moment, my son got frustrated and started crying tragically, ready to enter one of his now famous meltdowns. I acted calmly, in a "not a big deal" kind of way, and explained to him (again!) that this is how soccer works: it is part of the game for the other child to try to take the ball away from you).
But he kept repeating "X is mean...because he took the ball away from me and he scores in my gaaaate!"
(again, in a whiny, push-my-buttons type of tone).
Otherwise, taken separately, HE DOES understand the rules of soccer.

I am sincerely starting to not know anymore whether he says such things for emotional reasons (stress, frustration...to be taken out on the person he is most comfortable with: ME!) or for IQ reasons (he cannot understand).

Yes, he was given an IQ test during the evaluation. I only remember that he scored in the 95th percentile on some sections of the Verbal part and between 70th-85th percentiles in other parts. Then he scored around 40-50th percentile for the Performance sections (spatial, visual etc). He scored poorly (5%) on processing speed and ability to stay on task/focus.
I don't have the report copy with me, it is in the US.

The first thing the psychologist said when she saw us after the eval was that "he is very smart".
But the scores do not necessarily support this statement (other than the Verbal section, especially vocabulary, memory, etc - where he technically scored in the "superior" range). The others on Performance were average, at best (40th-50th percentile).
And if you go by some of the answers he gives you (such as the examples I gave above)... you start having serious doubts about this "he's-very-smart" thing the psych told us just ot make us feel better before she was going to deliver the bad news.

Then again, those answers are clearly accompanied by an emotionally charged reaction...so it is probably his stress and frustration being taken out on us with irrational, seemingly low IQ counter replies. I don't know anymore.

I would also appreciate some advise regarding his play skills. Are there any services/therapies/behavioral modification methods that might help him with such deficits? In time I have indeed noticed that he has very poor imagination. The psychologist made a related note in her report. She said he was given a dinosaur toy (something he is very interested in), he studied it some, but did not engage in any imaginative play with it.

He never plays "pretend" - to make up a little story with action figures, to take the role of various characters and use his voice to make them talk, etc. His playing skills, generally speaking, are extremely poor.

He will sit for a while and build with legos. He only does things that involve one-directional, one-dimensional, solitary, self-driven focus. He seems to be capable of playing in groups provided the game has structured, clearly set-out rules such as hide-and-seek, "Scary Man Has Arrived" or "Fire,Fire-Cold,Cold". You may not have heard of these latter two games but I am sure Americans have their versions.

The point is he does not have any imagination for unstructured, imaginative, fantasy play.

Because they seemed to be bored to death this morning, I suggested they play store: he was the sales person and she was the customer. He had to have the lines told to him to get into a minimum of pretend interaction/dialogue.
Things just did not flow and once I stepped out, they dropped it.

My question would be:

do those "social skills" classes I hear about include any hands-on instruction on how to play such interactive games? It is sad to think that you would have to teach your child how to play, step by step,...but it looks like this is what he needs.

I am kindly asking you to not get into any of the two "blame games" below as they are not helpful in any way:

1. "Stop trying to change him, accept him for who he is" (in this case, play repetitively only)
2. "You have a negative attitude towards your son".

My attitude is not inherently negative. Before realizing his issues are NOT related to social immaturity that will just resolves themselves with age, I've always thought the world of him.
In his toddler years, he came across as very advanced because of his verbal skills and desire to talk to adults...so everyone was going ga-ga over him as to how smart and special he is. We always abstained from showing off or boasting in public, mainly because I grew up in a culture that values modesty when it comes to speaking about one's own child; (not that things are not changing furiously here too in this department).
But other people were very impressed with him and always accommodated him; so after so much praise from others, we too came to think that he was indeed special.

Turns out he is - only not in the way we thought.

So my attitude is dictated by what I observe about him; and many of the things I observe about him are hardly positive.
I cannot NOT call a spade a spade and I cannot give up trying to do something about the darn spade.

As a mother, I am trying to find out anything helpful that can actually modify/reduce/eliminate the offensive, or in this case, limited behavior. I am yet to be convinced that accepting an autistic child exactly the way he is, with his quirks, weird behavior etc. by always adapting the environment to HIS NEEDS without trying to modify the behavior or without placing him in situations where he would have to give an inch himself to adapt to the environment - is doing him a service in the long run. The gentle and professionally operated push towards normality may happen against his grain and may cause a certain amount of stress, but I still believe it is a batter route than leaving him as is.

For ex, I would really love to see that he can learn how to play pretend with other children.
Can anything be done about this in behavioral terms or should I just forget about it>?

I suppose you could teach the rules behind pretending games. But it may have to be step by step. If it were me I would not bother, I can't see the objective of pushing him into a mimicry thats not natural or enjoyable for him in the way it is for other children. Is that even possible I wonder?

The more you describe of him the more the diagnosis does sound right. You will see plenty of adults on here talk about having high IQ scores but not being able to organise the right bus to get somewhere. Thats the 'executive processing' part of the mind that can be highly deficient.

What I'm hearing here is "I want to fix my child because he does not play right."

Isn't 'play' supposed to be... fun? No? Just me?

Read Stanley Greenspan's books (you mentioned earlier that you are going to one of the doctors in his practice). His Floortime Therapy model gives step-by-step instructions for parents in how to facilitate imaginative play. I recommend Greenspan's Engaging Autism which teaches parents how to teach autistic kids the very skills you are worried about your son not having.




Yes. Generally those are done through the school system but accessing that through the school system requires disclosing his diagnosis. However, many communities also have community-based social skills groups for kids on the autism spectrum. You will have to pay but it's generally not too terribly much money.

A very general rule of thumb for kids with Asperger's is that they are emotionally about 2/3rds of their actual age. It's certainly true with my daughter. She's nearly 18 but is emotionally around 12/13. This doesn't mean that she won't mature, she'll just get there a bit later than her peers. And it's not all bad, the innocence that comes with it is quite endearing. Other adults adore her. Keep this in mind with your son. He may be six, but he feels like he's 4.

I can hear your frustration in your post but keep in mind that smart though he is, he is still a child and is not delibrately trying to wind you up. Also keep in mind that he's what they call book smart not emotionally smart, so when it comes to explaining feeling and thoughts, he's going to struggle. When he says his sister will think the toy is hers, it might be the only way he can explain that someone touching his things is a massive, deal to him.

If you're not an aspie yourself you may not understand that someone touching your 'stuff' feels like you personally have been violated. Just writing that and thinking about someone touching my things is making my heart race and bring tears to my eyes. Just go into the general questions forum here and ask the aspies how they feel about other people touching their things. I'm struggling to find the words to explain it to you, what hope does a 6 year old have?

On a practical level, in our house (3 aspies ) we have family stuff that everyone can use and share but nobody would dream of touching anyone else's personal stuff without consent.

Meh, when I was a kid my parents would invite kids over for me to 'play' with and they would almost always ask "Can I have this? Can I have this toy? Can I have this one?"

And then my parents were confused when I didn't want other kids to see my toys. Might just be things happening that aren't beeing seen.

You said, "As a mother, I am trying to find out anything helpful that can actually modify/reduce/eliminate the offensive, or in this case, limited behavior. The gentle push towards normality may happen against his grain and may cause a certain amount of stress, but I still believe it is a batter route than leaving him as is. "

This shows balance - progressing in gentle, simple baby steps toward some goals. I would start with board games, learning turn taking and game etiquette. Other topics might be related to sharing, conversation, chores, manners, eating... Similar to social stories. When an issue came up, I would take stuffed animals and do silly skits on a correct way and an obviously wrong way to handle a situation. They were funny and my son most often "got it". The was a gentle, non confrontational way he coudn't receive instruction. He most often didn't know where I was going at first so he had his guard down. It did mean I had to endure the awful situations as they happened b/c I could only do the skits the next day, after he had calmed down.

Another thing to do now is to encourage any special interest he may have. This will build self esteem which will help him with stress. I over encouraged some of my son's talents which turned him off completely, so don't do that.

My son was diagnosed less than a year ago at age 9. He has improved tremendously in less than a year! He was extremely rigid before and EVERYTHING had to go his way, in his mind. Many people read that as selfish. And if I said something was black, he'd insist it was white. We had to move through stages which took time. The first step was to give him some time and space (which looked like I gave in to him) while I figured out his stressors. When stressed, my son couldn't take instruction. I homeschool and that meant he would do no school work at all. When not stressed (which at first looked like everything going his way), his behavior would be totally appropriate. In time, with gentle instruction, he got better and better at accepting disappointments and acting appropriately with little stressors. By far the biggest change came when we started a gluten free diet. He will always have things to work on but his behavior is generally appropriate at this point. He will probably always be quirky because he has theory of mind issues and is a bully magnet but I think he'll be okay as we progress through our goals.

As far as understanding your son's intelligence, he is intelligent but it's not even. Some call these kids twice exceptional. Others can explain this better than I - his high intelligence does not mean he can receive instruction at any time and any place. My son memorizes and retains things easily but for math he is very confusing. He understands math well and is always accurate but his processing takes forever. He thinks he is dumb in math. He is not - he is extremely accurate and is above grade level in his understanding. And, like your son, I can tell him something until I'm blue in the face and he won't accept it. Eventually I'll say it in a way he will accept.
I hope this helps.

You are right.
However, the ability to play "pretend" involves the ability to take the role of the other; and this ability is not used only in "pretend play" but in real loife too. This is why, by extention, he does not know how to play cooperatively with other children, how to immerse himself in a "give and take" game or dialogue, how to allow others to say something then respond to what they said, etc. This can further lead to separation, which in return will attract bullying. I have noticed patterns in his interaction with the neighborhood kids here (under my eyes) that seem to predict this kind of future at school.

This is why I think learning how to pretend play with another child (cooperatively) would be a good skill.
If I knew it was just another way of playing with no other implications, I couldn't care less how he plays.

Read Stanley Greenspan's books (you mentioned earlier that you are going to one of the doctors in his practice). His Floortime Therapy model gives step-by-step instructions for parents in how to facilitate imaginative play. I recommend Greenspan's Engaging Autism which teaches parents how to teach autistic kids the very skills you are worried about your son not having.




Thank you for the recommendation,. I will definitely grab that book upon return.

Last edited by goodolddays on 14 Jul 2011, 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

That makes sense then. Sometimes social interaction can be overwhelming. I didn't really learn to identify with other people until I started trying to read fiction. Even then, it took a little while. It's hard to think about perspective when you are so busy trying to process what is even going on in social situations, IMO.

Reading to him/talking to him might help with this. Teach perspective while taking away some of the confusing social parts. Also if you make imaginitive play more concrete it may possibly help. My parents actually did really well with this, IMO. They 'introduced' me to my toys. "This is Mr. Wiggles. He likes things that are pink but doesn't like the feel of carpet." Not sure that would work with all of us though.

Now...that's a phrase I have been fishing for and could not quite identify anywhere. So eventually they DO mature, only later.
If it was like that, I would not even worry that much. You may act like a 4yo at 6, but if you will eventually act like a 20yo at 20, than this is still fine.
However, instead of the reassurance that your child WILL mature, only a tad later, I kept encountering reminders like "keep in mind that ASD is not a mere childhood disorder, it stays with you for life".

Unfortunately, it seems like these developmental delays affects the child's entire life trajectory because they seem to spend their entire childhood and even early adulthood trying to catch up with the world.

I can hear your frustration in your post but keep in mind that smart though he is, he is still a child and is not deliberately trying to wind you up. Also keep in mind that he's what they call book smart not emotionally smart, so when it comes to explaining feeling and thoughts, he's going to struggle. When he says his sister will think the toy is hers, it might be the only way he can explain that someone touching his things is a massive, deal to him.



Again, speechless.
I don't know what to say to this. It makes you cry when you're typing about someone else touching your stuff?
Don't get me wrong, I believe you...but as a (most probably!) NT, I can tell you that this DOES come across as incredibly freaky to the mainstream population.

If things are exactly the way you say they are, there is nothing else I can add to this other than I am un "unlucky bas***d".

Are you kidding me, K-R-X?

I wold like to introduce to you the most READ TO child in the Universe.
Since he was a very tiny infant, there hasn't been one single night or afternoon in our lives when he was NOT read to. This is probably why he scored so high on the Verbal section.

We often discuss the stories too. I don't turn reading into an SAT prep but we do sometimes stop and discuss.
In fact, just a few minutes ago we finished reading Cinderella. His comprehension skills are way above the Cinderella level but this happens to be one of the few bilingual books we have around here, at my parents' place, so I read it in my native tongue on the left, and he read it in English on the right. It is an abbreviated version, of course.

At some point, he looks at the picture of the stepmother and her daughters, all portrayed with their mouths open, palms on their faces and big eyes...while the royal page was finding that the shoe fitted Cinderella perfectly.
He stoped and asked "Why do they look like this here?".
I asked him back: "Why do you think they look like that?".
He said: "because they didn't get to marry the prince themselves".
I probed further: "Why else? How did they feel about Cinderella?".
To which he said unequivocally: "jealous".

Now...had we never stumbled upon this dx, I would have never thought for one single second that I might have to check to make sure he figured out that part (at almost 6).
Granted, he does. But now I am extremely insecure about his ability to figure what the Heck is going on in some character's head, so I stop more often and double check. He always seems to have it figured out.

So... book smart? Maybe.
Life smart? Pain.

It doesn't mean that the child will be 20 at 20. 20 at 25-30 though isn't too much to expect. As you get older people stop maturing as fast, so if you are 30 and have the social understanding of a 20-24 year old its not nearly as noticeable. It's still there, it's just hard to see the difference after a certain age.

I actually think this helped me a lot in life. I'm thirty now and people assume I'm in my early 20's (the Aspie lack of facial lines helps too I suppose). I still get excited about new technology and innovations and am managing to stay current with the modern world, IMO, when many others my age were left behind long ago. The interists and innate drive toward research and understanding things doesn't hurt either, I guess.



It's difficult now, especially considering after the label was thrown on there all that you can really focus on are the deviancies. Call it what you will though, freaky or eccentric or whatever you will, you seem like that type who will appreciate the up side quite a bit. Just based on this conversation here, you seem to value understanding and knowledge and skill. Special interests, if allowed to grow, can give all of these things in degrees that are almost unheard of in NTs.

I realize the diagnosis is traumatic and it seems tragic and unlucky now. There is a very good chance though, that later on you will think you are the luckiest mother in the world. When his friends are going to jail for drunk driving, or dying on their 21st birthday of Alcohol poisoning, he will probably be chugging along in school. Dedicated to his subjects and free from many of the vices that destroy the lives of young adults. Assuming he makes it that far with self esteem and confidence intact.

Well, there you go. He has an understanding of social dynamics. Aspies, I think, have to process it that way and he seems to be ahead of the curve there. He will have to learn to cognitivly apply that to situations where other kids can naturally make that leap, but you've laid a solid groundwork.