Something I overheard in a store

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Nonviolence is a whole science, its not just for naive tree hugers. It works only if your opponents care about you, and other details. You know Ghandy, India was a colony of the british, i don't think indians had a lot of political rights.

Civil disobedience, means you disobay, accept voluntairily the punishment, and other psychological warfare. In the process, you mustn't hate your opponents, you let the door open for them to come closer to you. Letting them save face is also important. The truth is also important, by paraphrasing Ghandy, "you can punish me 10 times, what you would have gained? Il keep disobeying". Most parents will stop punishing before 10 iterations. Writing a nonviolent, nonhatefull blog, or youtube, or posters in the neighborhood, in protest of your parents behavior also caries weight. An other consept, is gradual escalation, you first ask them, then you start threatening you'll start non violent strugle, then you start small civic disobedience etc... Every time, you tell your parents, "look what you are doing to me! Are you proud about it?", and tell other in front of your parents what they are doing to you.

.....I hope they will not try the hunger strike method. But you can see, this last one should be really effective if all else fails.

Seriously, they will not going to kill them, or ground them for 18 years.

Kids never do these things. When punished they usually react angrily. The non violent way starts by accepting voluntarily the punishment. That alone will throw of most parents. Parents punishments are reactions to the kids counter reactions. With this you brake the cycle of violence. It will materialize by parent feeling more and more guilty when they hang around punishments.

There are other considerations about nonviolent struggle, but i just want to give an idea of whats about. In a way, its parenting in reverse.

The current parent/child power structure is a relic of our dictatorial past, it can change.

Aspie1, knowing the small bit about your background that I do, I have to say how much I really appreciate everything you've put into this post. I have been learning from it since you first began it.

Let me give you the flip side of this: a friend's kids have waaay more chores than my son does - even at my house, they clear the table and put the dishes in the dishwasher. When I asked her about it, she said she started it after her sister-in-law divorced. This SIL did absolutely everything for her kids, all the laundry and cleaning and cooking and washing-up and shopping. She suddenly became a single Mom and had to go back to work, so she asked her teenage sons to help out with the chores. They wouldn't or couldn't, and she now works a full-time job with a commute and continues to do every bit of the household management. What's worse - both her boys are now completely helpless and won't have the skills they need to live on their own.

I struggle with this a lot. My son has AS, and many of these chores are significantly difficult for him (this is why right now we don't ask him to put dishes in the dishwasher.) However, my goal is for him to be able to live independently, and for that he needs the skills to cook and clean and take care of himself. Prior to having a kid, and even when my son was a baby, I was a slob; my home was a mess...but I recognized that this was poor modeling and unacceptable, so I changed for my son (somewhat - I'm still no clean freak.)

I also think it's important for everyone in our household to contribute according to their ability: some earn a salary, some manage the household, and everyone puts some time and effort into the menial work. When my son is an adult, I hope he won't be surprised that he is expected to contribute in both large and small ways to his own community and family.

i think you are moving into dangerous territory to encourage children to disobey their parents, especially when you dont know anything about the situation or people involved. this could be disasterous given some of the deficits in your target audience.

I thought of that(i'm still here). This is why i'll start with teenagers. I'm thinking of some safety measures. For example just ask directly the parents, certain form of question, how dangerous is it really, lieing at this point will back fire. Never surprise the parents. They can choose some adult mentor. They can keep doing the exact same disobedience, for all form of civil disobedience(like, stop doing chores, i don't see the danger here). They can ask there parents directly what acceptable form of civil disobedience. Refusal to give an answer by the parents will simply mean they could do something dangerous. There also those blogs, flyers and youtube videos, that i don't see there danger. We can strt using some age limits, 16 seems nice as a first try of the concept.

The safety rules should be simple.

An other principle, is incrementalism, this way damage if it happens is under control.

Its not really disobeying, its rather resisting orders that are deemed abusive. They accept the punishment voluntarily after all, and they issued warnings in advance.

If parents get there acts together, they will be no orders to disobey against. First thing, kids should present the alternative forms of parenting. Like radical unschooling, that does work.

Want to add your safety proposals or actual wording? If you say flat out no, i'll ignore you.

I don't understand really why this is so important to you, I don't really give my daughter a lot of rebel against but she does rebel, and she does take the consequences even if she argues about how unfair she thinks they are. Your argument though seems almost like you're telling kids to rebel for the sake of rebellion rather than having a clear cut goal in mind. They should know that using rebellion as a means to bring about change should only occur as a last ditch effort after a period of rational and calm discussions take place. This is a period of explaining your beliefs but still doing the action for a period and when no ground has been gained, then they might resort to a rebellion technique. I think that might be where you are losing everyone else in this discussion. Teenagers that are quick to rebel are really only proving they don't want to put in the effort to respectfully try to get their way. You are educated about it so you see all the nuances and have a great understanding about why/how it works, but most kids won't, especially our ASD kids who result to the most basic forms of emotional manipulation and blackmail because they haven't practiced the range of emotions that older more experienced ASD adults have. When my daughter does the occasional things I ask of her like say putting her laundry away appropriately without arguing about it, I am more likely to give her a pass the next time, or just be more pleasant and understanding and even more respectful about her likes and dislikes and not ask her to do the dishes, or scoop the dog crap out of the yard. If she helps out without me asking her I am more likely to use the time I gained taking her somewhere or doing something extra for her as a thank you. There is a book that I have read called "Teenage Liberation Guide: How to Quit School and Get a Real Education" , it is a very good book. I think that you would like it and it would help you in your quest and wording in teaching teenagers the fine art of rebellion.

add safety proposals or wording? not a chance. the only thing i would add is the fact that you have absolutely no right to interfere in the workings of another family by encouraging children to go against their parents. no right at all. were i to find someone doing such a thing with my children, i would be quite irate.

you talk about having the children stop doing their chores, and claim this is "resisting orders that are abusive." honestly now, chores are abusive? thats utterly ridiculous.

i will admit to being alarmed that you think encouraging "resistance" is an appropriate thing to do on a forum for autistic teens. parents let their children participate in such forums so their children can explore their own selves and talk to people they share something monumental with, not so that some stranger on the internet can encourage them to practice civil disobedience against their parents. i also wonder at your age, because while you talk with the tone of an adult, most adults understand that the relationship between a parent and child is off limits to outsiders. other teenagers may commiserate and rage against the 'rents, but adults generally understand that its simply none of their business to step in between.

if you want to practice radical unschooling or any alternative methods of parenting with your own children, that is your business and you have ever right to do so. but you dont have any right to try to force it on other parents by trying to convince their children to follow your beliefs. you teach YOUR children your beliefs, let other parents teach THEIR children what they believe.

why i make my kids do chores...
i make them pick up toys because that way no one steps on them.
i make them pick up their dirty clothes so i can wash them, and so that they won't have to go to school naked.
i make them help out when needed because i am only one person, i have 4 children. 3 of my children have special needs and require extra attention. i don't have time to do everything by myself.
i make them bring their plates to the kitchen and pick up any left over snack foods so that we don't get disease carrying rodents running through the house.
i make them sweep up crumbs and vaccum because it's unsanitary to not do these things and quite frankly it's not me who is slopping cookie crumbs all over my carpets.
i make them clean their rooms so they can find their toys when they want them, so they don't trip on things, lose things, break things and so they have space to run and play.
i make them hang up their coats because that way they will be warm and dry when it's time to go out and so that when people are coming in and out they aren't falling on them.
i make them clean up any disasterous messes they cause in the process of a meltdown so that perhaps eventually they will realize they don't want the extra chores and decide not to knock everything off the shelf as well as for the same reasons i make them keep the toys clean in the first place.
i make them brush their teeth so they don't fall out or have painful cavities/infections.

now......where does it say so that the house can look pretty and stuff?
and yes, they do need to learn to be responsible for doing chores and it will help them out in the long run and doing chores will help prevent them from being lazy. i don't pay them. i consider it their way of pulling their own weight. i still do far more chores than all of them put together and quite frankly i don't really like doing it but thankfully i have learned that it needs to be done, not for asthetic reasons but for hygeine and safety reasons. i don't allow them to gorge themselves on candy because given the chance they would and they would get incredibly hyper until they'd break down crying and be far more sick and upset then they would be by me saying no in the first place. i don't talk to them like adults or let them make adult decisions for the same reason i don't talk to them about adult topics or show them adult themed television. because they ARE NOT adults. they are children.
yes, when they get to their late teens and early twenties they will do what all children do to seperate from their parents and become adults, they will rebel. the thing is that almost all children will go back to the values they were taught as a child once they are over the whole 'my way or the highway' thing. because these morals and values are engrained in who they are. sure they will decide to change a few based on personal experience and possibly having learned something along the way that i missed out on but overall the values we parents instill in our kids will come around full circle as they become mature responsible adults. i could never support the whole let them do whatever they want and hope they will chose to listen thing. in my mind that sort of lack of parental guidance will only cause confusion and an inflated sence of self in the child. i'd much rather see them working hard and learning to pull their own weight regardless of if they think it's fun or not. i certainly don't think its fun when ds takes out his sensory issues on the walls in his room with a fist full of feces and i'm the one left having to clean that up. i guess he should thank my parents for having instilled the value of cleanliness and responsibility in me when i was younger, or he'd be stuck cleaning it. i certainly wouldnt if i thought there was a choice involved. just doing the right thing and pulling my own weight. why try to avoid teaching them that?

Sorry, i think i'll be putting this on ice, i have a higher priority now. Your comments are welcome.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3350394.html#3350394

This discussion was literally like everyday arguments with my aspie!! !! !! !! OMG, and then she just drops it and moves on to the next thing. It is mindboggling to say the least, but at least he's moved on...... LMAO

Chores are real work. They aren't as physically taxing as chores were in the past but they are just as necessary. They aren't makework, as you are implying. They are things that have to be done. If kids don't help and parents do all the chores, kids don't develop a concept of what needs to be done to keep a home running and they get blindsided when they move out on their own because they don't know what to do. They live in dangerous squalor because they never learned how to clean. They don't feed themselves properly because they never learned how to cook. They can teach themselves over the course of years but it's a big burden to have to figure out all this stuff on your own. It's better to be taught, even if the teaching seems uneccessary to the child at the time.

In a household where one parent stays home (usually the mom), if she does all the chores because she has the time, this unfortunate "magic" effect happens where meals and clean clothes just poof into existence without the kids really understanding what is needed to make that happen. This hampers their smooth transition to independent adulthood. In a household where both parents work, there really isn't time for parents (ok, the mom) to do everything that needs to be done outside of the work hours. If the mom does it all anyway with no help from the kids, the same problem is created as with a stay-at-home mom doing everything with the added problem that now the mom is seriously overworked, burnt out, and at risk for the health problems that come with this.

The solution? Chores for kids. Carrying the groceries in from the car is nowehere near as taxing as carrying the corn in from the field, but it at least teaches kids that there are things that must be done before food can be consumed and it spares mom's back- a point you may not think is important but it is.

Yes, it's sexist to assume that the housework defaults to mom if the kids don't have chores. But that sexism is a reality in many homes.

When my son gets older, I will be teaching him responsibilities. He will put away his clothes, put his dirty dishes in the sink or dishwasher, maybe clean his room, pick up his stuff. If I do everything in the apartment, he will never learn responsibility and he will find himself not having any structure and will be lost because he be so used to having everything being done for him. His mommy won't be there to wash clothes for him or do the dishes or clean the bathroom or vaccuum or sweep or dust and he won't know what to do with himself because he wasn't taught in his childhood how to take care of his place. And it is hard to learn things as an adult because you are so used to what you had in your childhood and if you never were taught responsbilities, it takes huge effect in your adulthood. I even wonder if that is why some adults never clean and why their homes are so dirty. It's disgusting but it's their house right so they can do what they want with it. I just wouldn't want to sleep over there. My ex may not have had chores either in his childhood because I remember him telling me how he was always left alone and his mom didn't do anything with him but he always complained when I make him pick up after himself because I didn't want a slob nor a lazy man. But I broke up with him eventually and decided in my next relationship my next guy has to be neat. If I see his home or bedroom is messy, I will assume he is a slob and not buy the "I have so much stuff I don't know where to put it" excuse like my ex had. That's why I didn't even know he was a slob to began with because of that excuse he used so I thought it be different when he be living with me but nope. It was just BS he pulled on me. So that's where I judge and why I do now if I were to be looking again. But if someone's home was clean but only his bedroom was messy, I won't judge because it's his personal space where he can be a slob. I would just assume I will have a messy bedroom which is where I am a slob too. That is why I am hesistant to decide if I should have my son keep his room clean or not because it be his personal space but he would have to keep things picked up elsewhere in his home. But he would learn to have his bedroom to be clean when he faces natural consequences like losing things, things being stepped on, maybe friends not wanting to play in his room because it's so messy. Then he might decide to clean his room and keep it picked up more hopefully.

I like the conversation that transpired in the OP, but my children aren't quite mature enough to follow something like that.

I generally just say "No, you get one snack and that's it. If you don't put those back, I will put both back now and you won't get anything."

That, they understand. lol

Also, My children are 3 and 4 years old. They've had chores since they were able to understand instructions. They are required to...

1) pick up any mess they make with their toys

2) put their dishes into the sink when they are done eating

3) make sure their kid table/chairs are clean and put them back where they belong when not in use

4) make their beds.

Why do I do this? Because personal responsibility starts with self upkeep and expands to include helping the family run smoothly. When my children are capable, I will add chores to this list. I don't do it so my house 'looks pretty'. I couldn't care less how my house looks. I do it because nobody ever did it for me and now as an adult I struggle daily with the simple task of keeping a house clean.

I do not want my children to suffer through what I have been.

Yes. It's not an unreasonable burden foisted on kids. It benefits them greatly. When I was a kid I had more chores than my peers. I felt unreasonably burdened. That feeling changed to one of relieved gratitude as soon as I moved out. While my friends were accidentally turning their white clothes pink (because nobody ever showed them how to do a load of laundry) and discovering ants near their bed (because they never learned to sweep up crumbs), I was living in style. I had clean, unshrunk clothes and didn't have to worry about bugs or gross badly cooked food. I don't expect a kid to understand this, but when that kid is an independent adult, it immediately becomes clear what the benefit is.

Exactly, Janissy. I think bending to what the child wants does a major disservice. Children don't understand how the world works and why.

We are the parents for a reason.

While I understand your point logically, I still disagree. My parents put in tremendous amount of effort into keeping their home clean. Anything in my room that wasn't hidden was swept into trash right in front of me. The happy, enthusiastic voice my parents' talked to me in every time they did "general cleaning" (their term for cleaning the entire home) was utterly disturbing! I could see right through the saccharine tone, as they told me what needed to be vacuumed, dusted, and mopped. This raises the questions. Did they know that I knew? And were they really that happy to clean, or was it just bad acting on their part? Basically, they talked about cleaning like it was an amusement park ride, rather than a household chore. One time, they had the audacity to say to my face: "it's great that your school is on break; you can help us clean", all in the same saccharine tone.

Now fast-forward to 2007, when I moved out into my apartment and never looked back. And guess what? There's junk mail all over the living room floor, pizza boxes on chairs, bookshelves overflowing with useless trinkets I got god-knows-where, clothes dumped on the couch, sink full of dirty dishes, bed never getting made, and a desk looking like it was hit by a hurricane. But there are quirky posters on the walls, infrastructure working properly, nice clothes in the closet, cigarettes by the balcony (I never smoke indoors), spicy snacks and vodka in the freezer, plenty of food in the fridge home-cooked by me plus Coke to drink, and a slightly damaged dictionary on the coffee table. Occasionally, I'd get fed up with the mess and do some "general cleaning" of my own, but that was mainly before safety inspections or relatives visiting, and even then, it'd be back to "normal" within ten days.

Moral of the story? You won't always teach work ethic through chores. I think I'd have learned much better if I worked as a floor sweeper in a corner store, like kids did 200 years ago. Come to think of it, when I was 10, my much-older sister said she'd find me a job washing cars in the neighborhood. I got very excited about it, only to find out it was all a joke! I never completely forgave that joke, even though I now understand that there are child labor laws that prohibit something like that.