My Intent
Communication is hard for everyone. There is a set of techniques originally created by and for NTs (I believe) called "Active Listening" that is meant to reduce the communications failures that are a routine part of dialog between people.
A part of active listening is being attentive to nonverbal cues--this could be difficult for some people on the spectrum.
But another big part of active listening is to verify the listener's understanding of the speaker's message. This is achieved by the listener repeating the message back to the speaker as a verifying question. Usually this is a paraphrased version of the speaker's words, focused on the key message, and the verification question is very direct.
For example, in an earlier post in this thread, InThisTogether wrote:
"You can't, really, but you can make logical guesses. It's kind of like being a detective and searching for clues."
If I wanted to verify my understanding of these sentences, I would say something like:
"You are agreeing with cubedemon that it's impossible to read people's minds and advocating using contextual cues to infer probable meaning, is that correct? "
InthisTogether continued:
"Using those cues, you create a hypothesis which you can test against. "
If I wanted to verify my understanding of this statement using active listening technique, I would ask:
"I understand that you are advocating using questions to test the accuracy of the guesses you have made in interpreting the language of others, is that right?"
In analyzing language using logic, I think it's important to think of words as variables, not constants. Because it would take a lot of work to assign precise meanings to each word in each verbal expression, the exact meaning of communications is often very unclear.
Rather than thinking that you must accept the speaker's axioms to understand his or her speech, it might be useful to focus on verifying that you have correctly understood their assignment of meaning to specific words and phrases.
In the anecdote about the programming class, for example, a key part of the miscommunication was the interpretation of the "equality sign" as an indicator of a mathematical equation, when it was being used as an assignment operator token in code. Asking a verifying question about this understanding would probably have simplified transmission of the "assignment operator" idea from the teacher to the student.
I am by no means an expert in this, but I think using the verification techniques of "active listening" technique could be a helpful addition to your logical parsing of the language of others, cubedemon.
Rather than thinking that you must accept the speaker's axioms to understand his or her speech, it might be useful to focus on verifying that you have correctly understood their assignment of meaning to specific words and phrases.
I think this is a very accurate assessment of one of the major communication problems I see in Aspies - it isn't just a "literal" interpretation of language, but also an assumption that the meaning of words are constant. Thank you.
A part of active listening is being attentive to nonverbal cues--this could be difficult for some people on the spectrum.
But another big part of active listening is to verify the listener's understanding of the speaker's message. This is achieved by the listener repeating the message back to the speaker as a verifying question. Usually this is a paraphrased version of the speaker's words, focused on the key message, and the verification question is very direct.
For example, in an earlier post in this thread, InThisTogether wrote:
"You can't, really, but you can make logical guesses. It's kind of like being a detective and searching for clues."
If I wanted to verify my understanding of these sentences, I would say something like:
"You are agreeing with cubedemon that it's impossible to read people's minds and advocating using contextual cues to infer probable meaning, is that correct? "
InthisTogether continued:
"Using those cues, you create a hypothesis which you can test against. "
If I wanted to verify my understanding of this statement using active listening technique, I would ask:
"I understand that you are advocating using questions to test the accuracy of the guesses you have made in interpreting the language of others, is that right?"
In analyzing language using logic, I think it's important to think of words as variables, not constants. Because it would take a lot of work to assign precise meanings to each word in each verbal expression, the exact meaning of communications is often very unclear.
Rather than thinking that you must accept the speaker's axioms to understand his or her speech, it might be useful to focus on verifying that you have correctly understood their assignment of meaning to specific words and phrases.
In the anecdote about the programming class, for example, a key part of the miscommunication was the interpretation of the "equality sign" as an indicator of a mathematical equation, when it was being used as an assignment operator token in code. Asking a verifying question about this understanding would probably have simplified transmission of the "assignment operator" idea from the teacher to the student.
I am by no means an expert in this, but I think using the verification techniques of "active listening" technique could be a helpful addition to your logical parsing of the language of others, cubedemon.
Well, I will try it with you. I believe I understand what you are telling me. What you are telling me is words and symbols and their assignments are determined by the person, individual circumstances, environmental factors that are unique. Let's say we have a glass of water. As an analogy it probably would be impossible or highly improbable to have the same exact instance of water with the same exact molecules and atoms, same exact position of these particles and speed as well.
In a way, it is like the law of identity. Everything has their own unique identity and signature including human interactions. Am I understanding you or am I still of track?
With respect to programming it took me a while to determine the difference between an equation and an assignment operator. I had even more difficulty with communication especially with context involved.
Rather than thinking that you must accept the speaker's axioms to understand his or her speech, it might be useful to focus on verifying that you have correctly understood their assignment of meaning to specific words and phrases.
I think this is a very accurate assessment of one of the major communication problems I see in Aspies - it isn't just a "literal" interpretation of language, but also an assumption that the meaning of words are constant. Thank you.
Why wouldn't we want to have the meaning of words be constant and universal? How is communication effective if we all have our own meanings?
It isn't a question of "want to." Language is organic, and because of that it is neither consistent nor universal, in the same way that no leaf is exactly like another leaf. Communication is still effective, but we need to approach it a little more fluidly than we do numbers (and I'm told once you get in deep, even numbers aren't as specific as they would seem.)
If you decide that you are going to stick with wanting all words to be consistent and universal, you won't be able to solve the problem you are having with communicating in the job market.
Yes you are right. Gödel's incompleteness theorems.
By Gödel's logic you are right. I had to come to what you came to through formal logic. Logic says I cannot stick with the consistent and universal.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heraclitus
You do really well when you are explaining anecdotes, like the story about your mother. \Most people, however, do not follow mathematicians or philosophers, and lose your train of thought when you bring those subjects up (this may vary depending on the particular job.) They don't have the background (I have a little background and sometimes it takes me a while to parse the logic and math.)
This is not really what I meant. Your paraphrase is focused on the uniqueness of every combination of words--and the idea that I was hoping my words would convey to your mind is more about the variable meanings of words--they can certainly repeat or be shared, but before we can be confident that their meaning is understood by both the speaker and the listener, we likely need to check our assumptions about the specific meaning
Again, this is not quite the idea I had in mind. It's not really about unique identity. If you consult a dictionary you will find multiple denotations for the great majority of words. The synonyms and antonyms listed in a thesaurus will help to reveal the rich connotations that add to the complexity of verbal meaning.
Look at the definition of "medium" for example.
The phrase "find a happy medium" is a standard figure of speech that means find a good compromise between two positions. But in the right context, it could be about locating a spiritualist seance leader in a positive emotional state.
Each persons associations with a particular word are probably unique, but their understanding of the denotations is shared with everyone else who uses the same dictionary.
This will sound weird to you. My background is not as good as you think. For me, it is like a lot of this stuff pops into my head. It has only occurred in the past 2-3 years. Why is it happening?
Doesn't sound weird to me at all: sounds like an AS special interest. Just yesterday, I was talking to someone about the chemical formation of gluten and he asked me what my science background was. I explained that food was my hobby and he asked how long it took to learn that...I said I found out about it a year or two ago?
NTs really don't get special interests. You should have seen his face, he just could not resolve the cognitive dissonance of a PTA Mom talking about food chemistry.
The issue is that NTs don't tend to go in depth on things, and we lose them if we go too far in the things that fascinate us (I really didn't need to be explaining gluten at the time, I could - and probably should - have just said "you need special flour to make noodles."
lol I forgot most of my chemistry knowledge after all of these years. I would have to re-learn it especially organic chemistry. You know, if we have a periodic table of elements and if anti-matter exists why wouldn't it be possible to create a periodic table of anti-elements?
It would've been priceless
Yes, they do not go into depth on things. This is where we clash. They want to try things and do things and I can show why it will not work and they will say I have a negative attitude. When I am proven right a lot will say it was a part of God's plan or my negativity caused it to. Hence, my frustration. The guy who is the repairman is blamed.
My father believes I can do a lot more than I think I can. I challenged his assertion. I asked him "why would I believe that I couldn't do something if I really could do it? Why would I have these thoughts in the first place?" He answered "he couldn't tell me he is not me. You would have to think through that." This means he couldn't find any premises that supports his conclusion that it is my negative that is hindering my ability to do x, y and z.
If he can't find premises that supports his conclusion then maybe it is time to look at a different conclusion and that is my inability to do x, y, and z hinders my ability to have a positive attitude. My parents especially him wanted me to use critical thinking. Well, I am. His assertion makes no sense to me and he can't support it with premises whatsoever.
He has created a Frankenstein monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U
I think you simply need to try a different approach - something like the "active listening" mentioned before. First, I think people want you to acknowledge their thought process first - for you to say that you understand their thinking, and they had a good idea or starting place. Nobody likes to hear they are wrong or their ideas don't work, so instead of flat-out saying so, you can merely redirect them. Ideally, you want people you are working for in a hands-on situation to feel like they came up with the solution themselves, and you acted as a mentor or teacher, rather than a repairman, e.g.:
"That was a really good idea, I'm sure it is related to the registry...but maybe it would work better if you tried _____________________instead. Let's take a look." (Obvs. this sounds a little fake, you'd have to tweak the language to make it work.)
lol I forgot most of my chemistry knowledge after all of these years. I would have to re-learn it especially organic chemistry. You know, if we have a periodic table of elements and if anti-matter exists why wouldn't it be possible to create a periodic table of anti-elements?
It would've been priceless
Yes, they do not go into depth on things. This is where we clash. They want to try things and do things and I can show why it will not work and they will say I have a negative attitude. When I am proven right a lot will say it was a part of God's plan or my negativity caused it to. Hence, my frustration. The guy who is the repairman is blamed.
My father believes I can do a lot more than I think I can. I challenged his assertion. I asked him "why would I believe that I couldn't do something if I really could do it? Why would I have these thoughts in the first place?" He answered "he couldn't tell me he is not me. You would have to think through that." This means he couldn't find any premises that supports his conclusion that it is my negative that is hindering my ability to do x, y and z.
If he can't find premises that supports his conclusion then maybe it is time to look at a different conclusion and that is my inability to do x, y, and z hinders my ability to have a positive attitude. My parents especially him wanted me to use critical thinking. Well, I am. His assertion makes no sense to me and he can't support it with premises whatsoever.
He has created a Frankenstein monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U
My dad rhetorically questioned (but actually commented) to me, "why can't you be more successful, I know you aren't lazy, so what's going on with you?"
I wish I had more to contribute, I am just chiming in to say good thread.
Thank you for posting all this.
lol I forgot most of my chemistry knowledge after all of these years. I would have to re-learn it especially organic chemistry. You know, if we have a periodic table of elements and if anti-matter exists why wouldn't it be possible to create a periodic table of anti-elements?
It would've been priceless
Yes, they do not go into depth on things. This is where we clash. They want to try things and do things and I can show why it will not work and they will say I have a negative attitude. When I am proven right a lot will say it was a part of God's plan or my negativity caused it to. Hence, my frustration. The guy who is the repairman is blamed.
My father believes I can do a lot more than I think I can. I challenged his assertion. I asked him "why would I believe that I couldn't do something if I really could do it? Why would I have these thoughts in the first place?" He answered "he couldn't tell me he is not me. You would have to think through that." This means he couldn't find any premises that supports his conclusion that it is my negative that is hindering my ability to do x, y and z.
If he can't find premises that supports his conclusion then maybe it is time to look at a different conclusion and that is my inability to do x, y, and z hinders my ability to have a positive attitude. My parents especially him wanted me to use critical thinking. Well, I am. His assertion makes no sense to me and he can't support it with premises whatsoever.
He has created a Frankenstein monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U
My dad rhetorically questioned (but actually commented) to me, "why can't you be more successful, I know you aren't lazy, so what's going on with you?"
I wish I had more to contribute, I am just chiming in to say good thread.
Thank you for posting all this.
Just for fun and screwing around I would just tell him this.
Tell him " I have been very successful. I have successfully failed."
Seriously though, don't tell him this. I was just joking around with you and trying to use humor and NTs say we don't have a sense of humor. Personally, I say what a crock of crap
