Sibling Issues

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Ok, I have a situation that I would like anyone's thoughts on. This istuation includes 2 boys, pretty much step brothers (we aren't married, but basically are). The 9 year old, T, has AS. The 11 year old, C, has ADHD and PTSD (abuse). In this situation, I was not present-- but elsewhere in the house. The story on the situation was the same from both boys.

Both boys play soccer. T's ball was in the house and C took it into the basement to play with it. T did not want him to play with it and insisted he stop. C did not stop, but kept playing. T was adamant and kept trying to get the ball away. C kept it away and kept playing. Eventually, T got the ball and took it upstairs to the room they share. About 20 minutes later, C started playing with the ball again. T got mad, went for the ball and both kids jumped for it and fell while wrestling for the ball. C told T to stop being selfish, he didn't want to play wtih the ball anyway, etc etc.

T then went to his dad crying, upset that C was playing with his ball. He had a full fledged meltdown from it. He couldn't stop crying, couldn't stop repeating that C kept kicking the ball, etc. His dad told him he needs to let other people play with his things. I told C he needs to just go get another ball and not be so confrontational. They were both upset and both wished they never had to be around each other again.

How do you handle this?

Having 3 brothers and 7 sisters I can fairly accurately say that this is extremely normal for brothers to do to each other. They will grow out of it although the individual selfishness will possibly stay due to the nature of their personalities. For now you just have to set limits and abide by them, keep your punishments in ways that fit the crime, but keep your expectations realistic. It will be a hard few years, but they'll come out of it. There is little you can do to teach them not to be selfish or share, that's not something that can be forced. You can try to give them reminders when they are being hypocritical about it, but I can't think of much more than that, sorry.

I think clear rules would help. If they both agree that the ball belonged to T, then C should not play with it without permission from T.

T can be encouraged to give permission, but not forced to do so - being forced to share is inconsistent with ownership. If T doesn't share enough, and C cares enough about it, C can ask for a ball of his own.

My brother and I survived many fights to be great friends primarily because it was almost always clear what belonged to whom.

I agree, clear rules and boundaries. If the ball belongs to T, then C cannot touch it without T's permission. Plain and simple. For items that they are expected to share, clear rules about length of turns etc, with parents helping to enforce.

We have twin boys, both with AS and one has OCD issues involving worry over harm coming to his belongings. We have to have really clear rules surrounding belongings, and when there is uncertainty or boundary crossing, we have to step in and help with negotiations or things will quickly become explosive.

I wouldn't like it if someone came over and say, borrowed my car or messed around with my art supplies. Those things belong to me, and that means that other people are not allowed to take or use them without my permission. This is a given in adult life, even enforced by law. Children need to feel that their boundaries are respected, and that they have ownership over their own things too.

That sounds exactly like what happened between me and my older brother, about a couple hundred times... It is completely normal for brothers to do this. Aside from setting clear rules about asking for permission and respecting the other person's property there isn't much you can or need to do. It is just part of the way brothers work.

This becomes really difficult, IMO, because C has a LOT more toys than T has. T is allowed to play with C's PS2 without permission, his fooseball table, and a lot of other stuff. I am not a fan of having to ask permission to play with every little thing-- and to me, a ball shouldn't be a big deal. T plays with C's ball outside a lot with no issue.

I fear that if I put down a rule of "you must ask permission to play with anything of anyone else's," we are going to cause world war 3 and no one will be playing with anything. It's going to be a power struggle in every situation. "well, you didn't let me play with your ball that time, so you aren't playing the PS2," etc etc.

C has a sister, H (9, NT), and they share things with absolutely no problems at all. Now with T there, he is much more selfish than C or H-- and it causes a ton of tension. I don't know how to expect 2 of them to share but not the other. It would never occur to me that its strange that H would use C's skateboard without asking, if he wasn't playing with it. I fear that it will become C and H playing together and leaving T out, because he doesn't want to share his things.

it sounds like pretty typical behavior, and in my house it would have been handled pretty much the same way. you go at it from both ends, one needs to share more, the other needs to be less purposefully confrontational. we also take into account age and personality for these kinds of things. if one child has sharing issues or the potential to become upset beyond reason into a meltdown, then the other children do need to be aware of that and act with more respect towards the first childs wishes in regards to their own belongings.

also, i wouldnt equate the ball with the ps2 and fooseball table, unless both children have a ps2 and fooseball table. since both have a ball, it would have been reasonable for C to go get his own ball to play with. and to insist on playing with Ts ball, when T is getting increasingly upset over it, AND you have your own ball you could play with, is unreasonable. at least in our house.

we do require permissions for certain things, like for the 6 yr old to go into the 13 yr olds room and touch or take things. we do that because we want the 13 to have a feeling of privacy and his own space, and also because the 6 is careless about how he treats others things. but belongings left in shared space, like the living room, or a shared bedroom, are fair game to be played with without permission.

we also have a "dont poke the bear" rule. that means, dont upset someone on purpose. dont do things that you know are triggers for someone else. dont go into 13s room and take his toys without asking, dont grab a toy out of someone elses hand, dont walk up and change the tv inputs when someone else is actively playing a video game console, etc. the older kids know what this phrase means, the 4 yr old asd child does not, but more often than not hes the bear anyway, and hes never the poker. this is mainly about respect and consideration for those around you. its always said in a humorous way, but it lets the kids (and sometimes even one of us parents) know when their behavior is crossing the line and they need to step back and evaluate.

Is T really more "selfish"? Or does he have trouble understanding the many grey areas in a casual system of sharing belongings and not have the social skills to conduct the necessary negotiations successfully yet, due to his AS? It is great that the other kids have no problem sharing, but it is more difficult for T and that is not his fault.

It isn't necessary to ask permission for "every little thing", but you could sit down and have a family meeting wherein it is decided what will be shared and what is the owner's sole property, and what the rules for sharing will be. It doesn't sound like C or H need a structured system for this, but T probably does, and if the boundaries are clearer for him, tension levels will go down for everyone.

Well, I don't know if this has to do wtih his AS. I am not sure. But he isn't just like that with his ball-- its anything he has. His DS games, his legos, anything. OTOH, he has NO problem using everyone else's things without asking, and has fits if he can't use a game someone else is already playing. To me, that is selfish. Is it due to his AS? I am not sure.

I suppose it probably is goin to have to be mapped out-- and then there will be something that we forget to mention and it will become an issue. I wish I understood this more

if one child has sharing issues or the potential to become upset beyond reason into a meltdown, then the other children do need to be aware of that and act with more respect towards the first childs wishes in regards to their own belongings.

But they are all kids-- and if one demands they ask permission, they are going to see it as "fair" that they ask permission. That's really difficult for me and I foresee a lot of issues in their relationships caused from it.

also, i wouldnt equate the ball with the ps2 and fooseball table, unless both children have a ps2 and fooseball table. since both have a ball, it would have been reasonable for C to go get his own ball to play with. and to insist on playing with Ts ball, when T is getting increasingly upset over it, AND you have your own ball you could play with, is unreasonable. at least in our house

I do agree its unreasonable. I think both kids need to learn from this one-- someone playing with a ball that isn't being played with isn't a big deal. Going out and getting a different ball isn't a big deal. They BOTH over reacted and I think they were both in the wrong. I find it unreasonable to tell someone they can't use something, just because. We are a family, and most things are shared. The ball was in the basement not being played with. I don't necessarily think that C should have gone upstairs into the garage to get another ball, just because it was T's ball in the basement. I also think that once T started to get upset, he should have just let it go. C also is hypersensitive to "control," because of his PTSD. He saw T not letting him play with the ball as attempting to control him. He wasn't going to allow that to happen. They both have conditions that make that situation really, really difficult.

The problem with kids is, they see things much more "black and white" than in a reasonable fashion. T doesn't have anything that C & H don't have. So in that regard, he would never be expected to share anything. I think that's probably a mistake. They would be expected to share a lot of their stuff, but he wouldn't have to share anything. That's probably waiting for a disaster.

Having both an NT and AS child in my home, I believe that this seemingly extreme connection to his possessions IS connected to the AS. It is hard to know why, exactly, but my son's emotional connection to his things is very, very real, and exists in a way that my daughter absolutely cannot relate to. She keeps thinking that since she shares, he'll share, but it doesn't work that way with an AS child or, at least, not mine.

It goes beyond wanting or not wanting to share; it's like certain items are a part of the person. Maybe that in some way is one of my AS like traits, because I have a horrible time throwing out or giving away anything that ever meant something to me - which is pretty much everything. Hard to explain, but I can't let go.

With my son, it goes further. Clothing and other things that he couldn't care a less about are very different. It's his toys and his books and everything else that in some ways represents a part of him. I don't think he knows why he is connected; he just is. We first tuned into it when a friend of his wanted to trade hot wheels cars. The child was willing to give up two to get one car my son actually had two of - and my son could not do it. He really struggled because his logic knew it made sense, that he was being offered a generous deal, but his emotional connection to that object simply would not allow it. I watched his face go through all the push and pull of it, and handing it over but wanting it back ... the whole thing was an incredibly draining and emotional ordeal for him. After which we put a simple rule on it all: no trades, and no giving away your toys (except when they are years out of use and he has finally lost that connection - thankfully, he does lose it over time, not really connecting to something purely for history like I seem able to).

My daughter, on the other hand, gets real joy from sharing her things. To her, that validates her and her choices. My son doesn't get any of that positive emotion; it is entirely alien to him, and all he feels is the invasion.

So ...

What do you do?

I don't really know, actually, but will share the path we're on. While we're trying to gently work my son out of it (he WANTS to be out of it), we've pretty much given into it. My daughter gets mad about it, but accepts it as one of her brother's quirks, just like his pacing and everything else. It is discussed constantly. My son tries making baby moves on it as he is comfortable; and he does try. But we let him lead nearly 100% - with few exceptions, he decides what to offer to share, and when. When it comes at him unexpectedly, he can't deal with it. When he has time to think about the expectation to share a particular item at a particular time, and maybe even negotiate, he can usually manage it. When there is a situation where we'll want the later, we give him a head's up.

As with so many other things, you have a lot more peace if you recognize that a behavior comes from a unique and emotional place, and allow change to evolve, instead of being forced.

For helping our daughter accept the lack of reciprocity, we point out to her that she DOES actually get something positive out of sharing, so the balance may not be as off as it appears. We tell her to share because she wants to, and never because she is trying to earn something back; that won't work with her brother, and is an iffy thing in society overall. She is never required to share; she is asked to, and 95% of the time she willingly does, even knowing that her brother will rarely do the same.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 26 Apr 2010, 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_Mom- Yea, I totally get it. However, when I have as AS boy who is overwhelimingly attached to his things and a boy with PTSD that "melts" when things aren't fair and equal, we have a massive collision. I don't think either one has a need greater than the other in this situation, but they are completely opposite needs. It's almost like I have to pick one need over the other-- and I don't know how to do that. We totally have to take AS into consideration, and we have to take PTSD into consideration. They are both conditions that very much affect the way these 2 boys are.

While you were typing I did add a little more about how we've helped our daughter deal with it, but we don't have the PSTD complication.

I think the AS child CAN be taught to understand the needs that arise from the PSTD, and I would start there, but the road will not be easy by any means.

You know, I spend a lot of time letting each of my kids grumble in private about their sibling. I've never tried to squash it. They love each other and are well aware of each other's positive points, but they both often feel they've gotten the short end of the stick and they need to be able to let that out in a way that won't do much harm.

And I do tell them that the other also feels he/she has the short end of the stick. Along with the classic lesson: if you don't feel you are carrying 70% of the weight, you aren't carrying your 50%.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 26 Apr 2010, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I am actually relieved to hear that. That's what I was concerned about. I can explain AS to C, with PTSD, but I wasn't sure if T could grasp the needs behind the PTSD-- and what causes some of the confrontational behavior. When being rational, the boy with PTSD can react well. Once he gets "set off," its a very fast downward spiral.

You may have to try a few dozen different explanations and examples before you get one that sticks, but don't give up. Be aware that even when he "gets" it he won't always be able to act with respect, but it's a start. Anytime an AS child feels you've trusted them and tried to work with them, you start two steps ahead. They like to be in control of their lives, and to devise their own solutions.

And, once again, I kept writing more in that last post after the first send.

I love the "don't poke the bear" rule. This is exactly what I have been trying to express to my 6 yo NT son about his 4 yo ASD brother. The words I have been using are not really making an impact but this sounds like just the ticket! And I think it can go both ways for us as my 4 yo is both the bear and the poker sometimes.

Thanks!