grandparent of 2 year old quirky kid

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I'm a grandmother of a 2-year old displaying signs - I think. His parents think his obsession with numbers is a normal interest. They don't see that he uses numbers to interact with people instead of normal socializing habits of babies and toddlers. That's if/when he decides to interact with someone.

They remind me that toddlers are obsessive - and I know that - I had 4 children. It's just not the same with ZZ and I don't know what to think about him not being interested, or even understand the concept of, interactive play - other than getting me or his parents to count with him. His parents believe in early education. His first words were numbers - that's how much number training he got even before he was a year old.

Besides the obsession with counting numbers, several times a day, while playing by himself, he will do simple addition or subtraction drills over and over again - like, '5 take away 1 is four; 4 take away 1 is three' - that sort of thing. Or he will count to one hundred, or start with one hundred, adding another zero to go to 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 - you get the idea. Are these just things he does because his parents taught him to do them when he was very young and continue to instruct him (he's 2 - his dad tried very persistently recently to introduce him to the concept of Pi and memorize the 3.1459265 ratio).

ZZ can play for hours, lining up his numbers, sometimes letters. He has food and clothing issues. It is nearly impossible to distract him from from what he's doing or wants. When he 'zones out', there's this thing he does with his left hand, a kind of back and forth over the left eyebrow, the thumb of his right hand in his mouth. I mention the last bit only because I'm wondering if the flappy-thing over his eyebrow is a flapping habit common in AS. I'm not worried about the thumb sucking. He has explosive melt-downs - several times a day; but he just turned 2 years of age in December - so that's not so unusual.

He doesn't respond to his name - though he knows what it is and can spell it. In fact, it's not possible to get his attention at all without picking him up or taking hold of him and turning him around. Even then, often his eyes just glaze over like he can't see you or he'll throw a berzerker fit. He is responsive to his parents, but to me it seems minimal compared to other children. He does have loads of fun when his Mom plays typical tickle or funny rhyme games with him. Mostly, what he wants from his Mom and Dad is to be held - but while they are standing. He's pretty intolerant of being held if they are not standing up. He interacts with me a lot during the day (I live in the same home), but it has to be one of just a few games we have established in 'our' repertoire. We have to do the same finger counting game dozens of times a day. I've introduced him to pillow fights, which he likes, although he doesn't 'get' that he could pick up the pillow and smack me with it too. And these games are not really interactive, even though there are two of us 'playing'.

My daughter, ZZ and I were in a store a few days ago. I was talking with another woman about some product. When the woman looked directly at ZZ, he stuck up one of his index fingers and said robustly, "I've got one finger". (This is how our counting game starts, dozens of times a day). We thought it was cute that he was willing to engage a stranger in the game and after we explained how the game goes, she played it with him through half a round. On reflection later, I wondered if ZZ had turned to the finger counting game as a means of easing his stress in an unfamiliar setting. He'd never seen me talk with anyone other than his parents (I live in another state, am visiting for most of this year). He doesn't seem to know any other way of interacting with me, he does like me very much and likes being around me - which means we play that game dozens and dozens of times a day. I have asthma, so I cough sometimes. He wants to play the game as soon as I stop - as if it is some means of comfort to him - to be reassured that all is ok, I guess.

I'm not sure ZZ has AS. I just don't know what to think. He's not like any child I've ever known. I probably didn't mention all his odd behaviors - but reading over an AS list, he fits almost everything. Some sounds seem to hurt him physically - he will scream bloody murder when he hears them. This is what I don't understand - is he like the way he is because he was born somewhere in the spectrum or is he like this because his parents drilled him in numbers and math, letters and words (yup - he can read too - up to 6 letter words, and sentences as long as the words are no longer) when his mind should have been integrating social skills.

Any thoughts .....

Last edited by WowLi on 06 Feb 2011, 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Acceptance is the best cure.

I don't know your daughter or son-in-law, but is it possible that one or both of them are so comfortable with early childhood numbers and reading because that is what they enjoyed? And perhaps your grandchild inherited this interest? If one or both of your grandchild's parents shared his interests, they would be unlikely to view his quirkiness as unusual. Also, since he is their first child, they have little with which to compare.

At this age, it is very difficult to say anything about what you are seeing. It is as likely to be giftedness as it is Aspergers. He is engaging (on his terms), and that is a good thing. It sounds like your daughter and son-in-law are enjoying their child, and that is the best thing.

to me, a lot of the things you describe in this and other posts do sound like spectrum traits. he is still very young however, and that makes it harder to differentiate between what is spectrum and what is typical 2 yr old.

one thing i dont recall seeing is how he is with peer relationships. autistic children often interact with adults in a more typical manner, but its when they are with their peers that the differences really stand out. what is his interaction like with other children? have you taken him to the park or even mcdonalds playland, and observed his behavior there with other children? does he approach other children, play with them, talk to them, respond when they talk to him, or join in their play when they initiate contact with him? how he interacts with his peers should be much more informative than how he interacts with parents or family.

Thanks Azurecrayon. I should have included this as part of my observations. Jeez - there's so many pieces to this puzzle!

It was when I accompanied ZZ and his parents to the playground that I first began thinking AS. He does not approach other children. He seems overwhelmed and resorts to his right thumb in his mouth, left hand flapping against his eyebrow behavior that he does when he's unsure about things or seems overwhelmed. If no other children are around, he likes to play on the equipment like other children do. If there are many children around, and they get very close to him, he will go to the big abacus on the playground and count or do simple arithmetic problems with the beads. Numbers are always a great comfort and/or distraction for him.

With his parents, he is mostly a happy child. I've lived in the home for about a month and a half now. It took about 3 weeks for him to get used to my presence and he seems to genuinely enjoy my company when we play the 'appropriate' games. When he sees me first thing in the morning, his little face brightens and he is quick to put an index finger up and declare 'I got one finger', the beginning of that little game we do. He does this whenever he first sees me, like me entering the room he's in or if he's been busy with his personal play and comes to notice me in the room.

He is delightful - in ways all 2 year old's are and in ways that are peculiar to his quirks. He doesn't offer, or even understand, the usual social exchanges appropriate to his age - but what he does offer is darling and just as touching as are more NT toddler exchanges with beloved adults.

I just want to be able to support him in ways that he needs. And I want to help my daughter along the way. I'm pretty convinced her husband/ZZ's father, a brilliant and good man, also has AS. I'm finding out it isn't unusual for this to run in families. Meanwhile, neither of them have a clue that their son doesn't fall in the bulge of the Bell Curve.

I can't say anything around his father. Right now it's really unproductive and I get explosive results. Without bringing his father's personal obsessions into this, lets just say that one of the two things Daddy is obsessed with is what is wrong with society and he sees his son as living proof that everyone else is doing things the wrong way with children.

Meanwhile, my daughter recognizes her husbands quirks as a result of early childhood abuse. I've heard some appalling stories. I don't think my daughter suspects AS. Until a couple weeks ago, they didn't know anything about Asperger Syndrome. They only do now because someone they know has a relative recently 'diagnosed' with AS.

They are expecting their second child in a couple months. I'm trying to educate myself as fast as I can, because if she is NT, these parents are going to be very confused when she behaves very differently from her older brother.

So I'm grateful for all the help I've been getting here. I've also read dozens of informative websites and am still in the middle of Quirky Kids.

I'm not looking for cures. He's just differently wired. His dad is differently wired. I just want him to have what he needs, even if it has to be on his terms. I think my daughter and I will be able to have a productive conversation about the subject in the future. I want very much to be on her side, supporting her as she figures out how to raise her son and still be the wife her husband needs.

Although I will almost never say "I am certain _____ person has AS" (the two exceptions being two people I have known my whole life), I will say this: it would be well worth the time to have the child assessed for the possibility.

I will also say this: the numbers obsession is pretty cool; that is going to be one brilliant kid if that sticks (even if it doesn't, I bet).

[I will also say this: the numbers obsession is pretty cool; that is going to be one brilliant kid if that sticks (even if it doesn't, I bet).]

Thanks Pat2roam. I quoted this portion of your text because I was thinking the same thing - that cute now may be helpful later in his professional life.

But the rest that you said is very, very helpful. I needed the reassurance that what I'm seeing in my grandson could be AS. We'll see how things flow this year - he just turned 2.

And thanks all who have posted. I've got some ideas to follow up on in my search for info.

The way that he talks about numbers is how my son started to talk about car makes and models when he was about 2.5. That was about all he wanted to talk about. You are right though, all toddlers can be obsessive. But, you said you had 4 children, so you can probably trust your instinct on this.

Your grandson does sound like he is on the spectrum to me. It sounds like the parents will have to come to the conclusion on their own though. Just as a word of caution, I would approach this very carefully especially since you suspect the father has AS. My husband (who I don't think has full blown AS, but has many characteristics) had a very hard time coming to terms with our son's diagnosis. It will be 3 yrs this coming Feb., and he is just now coming on board. It was very stressful for our marriage. Even though my husband adores my son and completely accepts him for who he is, it was difficult for me because I knew something was going on, and I felt all alone in dealing with my sons behaviors. Even though my husband sat in on the diagnosis with the doctor, and sat in on meetings at the school where all of the professionals told us that our son was exhibiting autistic traits, my husband simply just felt that my son would just grow out of it. I think he is now understanding that my son is improving, but that he is not going to just grow out of it. Our son is our only child, and we both completely adore him, but it has been tough trying to make the best decisions for him regarding his education. Now I finally feel that I can talk to my husband about it and he is listening.

If your grandson has AS, it is not the end of the world. I know in the beginning it can be hard to accept, and it sounds like you are a very accepting type of person. You will be a great support for them if he does get the diagnosis. If I were you, I would try to encourage them to put him in some type of pre-school program when he turns 3 even if it is only 2 days a week. I am pretty certain that the teachers (even if they do not think it is AS) will mention it if he is not playing with other children. This I think will be the first step. I agree that it sounds like your grandson may be gifted as well, but this does not mean that he will not have difficulties in a school setting.

I do wish you the best of luck. You sound like a great grandmother. This will make all the difference in the world to your daughter, I can guarantee that.

Actually, gifted students often have LOTS of difficulties in school settings.

Angelbear - you have been so helpful these last couple months, with your posts and private messages. I am so grateful to you.

The individuals on this website have helped me to realize that, while I began with a scramble for information, I need support in this too, if I am to be of any use to this family.

ZZ's parents have previewed a pre-school recently. They are thinking of getting him more peer interaction than he's getting with his weekly play-group and a couple other things they take him to now and then. They aren't thinking of putting him in pre-school really soon - he's just 2 - but they are thinking of later in the year as he approaches 3.

Thanks to all the input here, especially, and the other thread I started last month, and reading comments in other threads, I'm thinking now that I need not push on this. As said, it will become more apparent next year if he's in the spectrum or not.

Whew!

Wowli---

I am just happy to be able to help. I just remember how alone and overwhelmed I felt. I found WP about a year ago, and it has been a lifesaver for me.

You know, I think you are right. Maybe just try to back off and just keep enjoying your wonderful little grandson for who he is. If he is on the spectrum, it will be okay, just different than what you thought. That is one thing I really tried to make a conscious effort to do was to try to really just love my son and enjoy his toddler years. For me, it is only going to happen once ( I am an older mom) so I wanted to have some good memories to look back on and not always just think about AS. My husband and I do have some good laughs over some of the odd things our son used to say and do.

It is a journey, and there will be ups and downs. I remember feeling so scared when we got the diagnosis. I thought, my son is not even going to have a relationship with me. He won't even care that I am his mom because he never really ever called out the word Mom when he was upset. But now, I am so happy to report that we have a very close and wonderful relationship. He puts his arms around me and hugs me so tight. The other day he said to me "Mommy, I am loving you so much!" Of course these are the moments that make me believe that everything is going to be all right.

Just hang in there and be supportive.----

WowLi, once ZZ's parents enroll him in a pre-school, his behavior is going to attract attention like bees to honey. The parents will have to ask themselves, "haven't we heard this somewhere before?"

Now you know what to buy him for Christmas. A big ole Texas algebra calculator

I think ZZ's dad seems defensive is because of the life long negative feedback he's probably gotten for HIS behaviors. I doubt he's even aware of the connection, that he did have un-neurotypical behavior (and very insensitive parents ) . It's like he blames society (which is mostly true) but for him to realize what he experienced was in part due to his neurological differences might actually help him with himself. Not to mention the benefit for ZZ.

Of course TELLING a person this is usually not welcome. Hopefully as ZZ grows and encounters the schools and society ZZ'd Dad will learn about himself.

I'm no diagnostician either but from your description of ZZ . . . heck, you have to admit, the signs are compelling. I agree that ZZ does not need to be "fixed", he is perfectly himself and it's the rest of us that need to get over it. He's lucky to have you as a grandma, and your his parents are lucky to have you too. I suspect they'll be much more aware of that as time goes on

Gooselady said:
[WowLi, once ZZ's parents enroll him in a pre-school, his behavior is going to attract attention like bees to honey. The parents will have to ask themselves, "haven't we heard this somewhere before?"]

That's probably right on. Judging from how often my daughter says something in defense of ZZ's behavior or lack thereof, maybe she is thinking something's not usual with him. But this is her first child and she's had very little exposure to young children. Still ...

She rented the movie Mary & Max a few weeks ago. I wonder ... Knowing her hubby as she does (they are a great couple with deep affection for one another), she would know how difficult it's going to be for dad to come to grips with this. He watched the movie, went to Wikipedia & read what was there on AS and vehemently denounced the diagnosis. By that time, I'd been reading a great deal for over a month, and gently defended that when we're dealing with a bajillion neurons that can be wired in virtually an infinite number of configurations, cognitive disorders are just not going to be as precise a diagnosis as an elevated level of cholesterol. He didn't get it.

It was that conversation that made me realize that ZZ's dad probably has AS or something approaching it. What he wasn't 'getting' about the diagnosis are precisely the things that many people with AS would have a problem with - he needs exactitude's.

Realizing that he too probably has AS - that it is a matter of 'can't', not won't - makes it easier for me to deal with his lack of social graces. He's not just an intellectually brilliant man. He's a deeply caring person - what my grandmother would have called 'a good man'. AS or no AS, my daughter lucked out with her husband. They both did very well.

We'll be fine, in the long run. In the short, I've got this website and I'll refer my daughter to it when the time comes - probably sometime this year.