implementing incentives

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Hi all,
My question is: would it work to give positive incentives and also take them away?

I'm trying to gear up my 11yo to handle school by this fall. We have a 2 hr homeschool class which coveres grammar, math games, and writing. Much of the teaching is directed to the parents, with the kids there, so I'm required to be there. I accomodate my son too much - getting out the materials, pointing to where he should be following along, whispering, "you know what a gerund is, tell them."

He often is highly disciplined, so he probably CAN do much himself. He doesn't like the class and after a while "he's had it!" so he needs incentives. Tallys which translate into computer time can be effective for him. I want to tally the number of times I see him do what he needs to do to participate, but give negative marks when I have to step in. The combined score would indicate the number of extra computer minutes he gets.

So, is it too harsh to give and take away? I expect the number of opportunities to tally him to be quite high. Also, I'd put the tally card in plain sight so he can get immediate confirmation.

We just did the same thing with our daughter and it's working great! I wrote a rather long post about it here: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5179852.html#5179852

Its so hard to say since every kid is so different but I can share with you some of the things we do/have tried. At school, DS has a series of must-dos and may-dos. He earns a penny for every must-do he does. Must-dos include things like going to reading group, doing his math worksheet,etc. Actually, this incentive program is used with all the kids in the class, it is just used more intensively with DS. He has a checklist each day with the must-dos listed on it. Each time he does one a check mark is placed. At the end of the day (or beginning of the next day) he gets to collect the number of pennies as he has check marks. Pennies never get taken away, he just earns fewer of them if he doesn't do his must-dos. At the end of the week, the kids get to go SWAG (Stuff We All Get) shopping. The teacher has got DS's number for sure! Some of the prizes he can buy include Get out of home work free cards and Bring a show & tell item cards. These are big hits with him. There is also a lot of other trinkets that he loves. At first, DS earned a penny for even attempting to participate in a non-preferred activity. His tolerance for sticking with those activities has grown over time. He has the opportunity to earn extra pennies for participating in activities he doesn't usually do, like group math instruction. The may-dos on his schedule are typically preferred activities like doing Rocket Math on the iPad. They also have multiple sensory breaks built into his schedule. Building these activities into his schedule helps him be able to tolerate non-preferred activities. The may-dos and sensory breaks are incentives in themselves.

At home, I tried for a while a chart where he earned computer time for doing things he needed to do (the equivalent of must-dos at school) like getting dressed independently. And he would lose time for doing things he wasn't supposed to do like hitting his brother. After reading plenty of stuff here about charts and such, we chose to have every day start with a certain number of minutes and he could go up and down from there. I also incorporated easy things he could do to earn time back like quick easy chores. Honestly, I don't know how effective this was for us. I think I wasn't as consistent about applying it as they are at school. I also think I used the threat of losing time to get him to do things that I should not have. Losing time often resulted in minor meltdowns and the goal of getting him to take a certain action was often not successful. So, what I learned is that for my son, it seems to work better to use positive incentives and neutral consequences (not earning a penny is a lot different from having a penny or computer time taken away). Also, the items that the incentives and consequences can be applied to needs to be clearly defined at the outset and only modified under clearly understood conditions.

Bombaloo, how old is your son? You wrote: "Also, the items that the incentives and consequences can be applied to needs to be clearly defined at the outset and only modified under clearly understood conditions."

Yeah I want to have it all figured out before we start so there is not much change when we implement it.

The issue is whether I should have negative tallys. If I do, he might argue (and he is a fierce arguer) that he didn't need me to step in and therefore shouldn't get a negative mark. If I don't, I loose the opportunity to give him a jumpstart when he is really slacking off.

How do I decide?

Make self control one of the things you're tracking. What we do is give one warning, if she (age 12) continues doing whatever it is, she loses points. Quite literally we say, "This is your 1 warning, you're about to lose points." And, then the decision is left to her. We made absolutely clear that this was part of the deal and is a valid way to lose points. Sometimes she argues about it, but most of the time she doesn't.

Regarding the issue of him not thinking you should step in; this is where you have to remind him of his place. You're the parent, and have much more experience in this world. It's you're JOB to try and help him be able to cope with our sometimes crazy world; that although right now it doesn't seem that way to the kiddo, he needs to trust that we know what we're doing here.

I've had to explain that quite a bit...sometimes it's hard, and frustrating...but, she UNDERSTANDS now, and it's making a HUGE difference in her behaviors!

My son doesn't do well with losing stuff at all, only gaining works for him.

That said, we do use losing privileges for actual naughty behavior which I rarely see. (For instance stealing would get a consequence).

My son doesn't have strong self control and when engaged in a non preferred activity, really can't retain focus for long. I would give a point for self control and ignore my need to prompt. I would not engage in an argument about prompting.

For my son, the rewards need to be immediate AND not be something that he really feels he needs. Mine feels that he needs screen time to decompress and socialize. He wants to work for stuff that he sees as extra - money. I know we all handle screens differently, but for us, life got much calmer and more work got done, when I stopped negotiating with screens.

This may or may not work with your son, but my son is very rule-oriented, so if we sit down and discuss expectations, including consequences and what they should be at the onset, he rarely argues. In fact, I can often ask him what the consequence for his behavior should be, and he is often a bit harder on himself than I would have been so long as he views himself as being "guilty as charged."

I guess what I am thinking is can he be involved in setting the program up? Also, what about having a rule like "you lose 2 points if I have to step in, but you gain one back if you do not argue about it" or something along those lines (that would be a rule my son would set up).

I personally would not deduct, but my son does not respond well to that and it is simpler to avoid that when I can. We do take away privileges for "big deals." I would not do it in the system you are proposing, though YMMV.

My son will be 7 in mid-March. Take this for what it is, suggestions from someone who knows little to nothing about your particular kiddo. Based on my experience I would say no, don't do negative tallys, I would treat the need for you to step in as a missed opportunity to earn a good mark. Can you break the time into subjects or set time limits? Like if 4 subjects are covered during the time period, he could have 4 chances to earn a good mark, or more if necessary. If he needs more incentive, he could have an opportunity to get a mark for the beginning, middle, end of each subject or something like that. A couple reasons I think the negative marks might not be effective are, as you alluded to, the need for you to step in may seem subjective (read unfair) to him. This may result in arguments which is probably going to be a major distraction from the work at hand. He might actually learn that arguing with you about whether or not he deserved the negative mark is another way to avoid doing work.

Thanks to all for the great comments.

He knows I'm trying to gear him up for attending school, and he is okay with that. So, good idea to involve him in setting the parameters. Maybe I'll ltell him in advance that we'll have a two tiered program. First only rewards. Starting in March, I'll step it up by removing points for my prompts. That way he'll have over a month to ease into taking responsibility for himself and be ready to go without prompts.

I also love the idea to lose two points for prompts, but regain one for not arguing.

Bombaloo, what I want to reward each time he obeys the teacher to pull out a resource book, notebook, text book, etc. and put it away. Also, to follow along where she is. I think there will be more than plenty of opportunities for points.

BTW, the tallies are for EXTRA screen-time; he still gets his decompression time.

Hi Aann -

Is going back to school important to him? If so, I wouldn't implement removals unless he thinks it would be helpful.

I would likely say.... If you want to go back to school, you will need to be able to manage there on your own. So far, I'm stepping in quite a bit, which won't work. How do you think we can get you ready?

If he thinks removals would be helpful, than that's great!

For my son....having me in the room was the problem. He is much more independent when I'm not there. I understand that for this specific class you need to be there, but I'm wondering if getting him prepared for school a different class (without you) may be better practice?

No, he isn't going BACK to school b/c he has always been homeschooled. But, yeah, I was thinking too that it might be better in another class, but it's what we have. His only drop off classes are hands on science, karate, and chorus, non of which he has to keep track of materials and such. Well, he does have to be very attentive to chorus sheet music, come think of it.

But now that you suggest it, I could work him up to be independent, and then as if I could attend the class next door. Same class, younger students. It wouldn't exactly be following the rules but maybe they'll make an exception.

Sorry about the "back" to school.... We homeschool but started out in school, so it's how I think!

It sounds like you have a great idea!

The other thing you can try, is butting out...all the way out, and then let him get stuck a little. As it is now, he knows 100% that you step in. I think you may get his attention better if you just don't. You may both get a better picture of what school will look like.