babies

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ok, so after knowing a few people with babies who ended up having issues as toddlers/pre schoolers, and now knowing a few babies that have worrisome symptoms, I wonder:

you know some people say their baby was typically developing then one day changed, or they slowly lost abilities, my question is what if the babies had issues all along and the parents didn't realize or were in denial? I know a few babies now that worry me and the parents are clueless, they think the babies are typical developing and I see warning signs. What if it is always like that? What if ASD always can be seen early on and some parents just don't see it, or are in denial about it?

How were your ASD kids as babies, and did you know back then?

my son had mix of typical and atypical development at the same time. I had NO IDEA he was on the spectrum, but looking back the signs were there early on, just his NT development had me feeling like he was fine. Maybe I was in denial too? But I would not be one of those people who say my child was typically developing from the start. I know he wasn't, he had most NT development but he did have other signs I was clearly aware of (ok and some I didn't know were an issue till he got older).

I think parents are clueless about it because each kid is different and some parents may be ignorant to child development so they may not know what their kid isn't doing isn't normal. Some don't know until their kid is diagnosed and they look back and realize the signs were there all along and they just didn't notice they were signs. Thy just assumed it was their personality or quirks. But it's still hard to tell IMO if what they did was normal or ASD. You're right some could be in denial, they see what other kids are doing and they notice their child isn't doing it yet but they put it aside and think, "Oh every child is different, I am not going to compare my kid to other kids."

My impression is that this is reported primarily in cases that turn out to be rather severe, in that it's a specific subtype. I believe (though I'm no expert in childhood autism) that in most cases, it can be spotted pretty early on, if you're watching for it and know what to look for. Someone posted a link last week to an article that included videos of clinicians working with kids as young as 2, demonstrating the behaviors they watched in order to determine signs of autism. It was quite fascinating how clear the differences were between the autistic kids and the neurotypical kids once they pointed them out.

>>Here It Is<<

I'd bet you assumption is correct some of the time. However, losing (or misplacing) skills is a common phenomenon for people on the spectrum, so I wouldn't think your hypothesis would cover every case.


For my kids:

7-year-old (ASD): I noticed signs in early infancy. He would go to great lengths to avoid eye contact until he was about 18 months old. It was fairly humorous at times. He no longer avoids eye contact and does not have trouble in that regard. Other symptoms did not give me suspicion until he was over age 3.

4-year-old (NT): cried until you put her down. She slowly outgrew her sensory sensitivities and is just now what I would call "not a cuddler".







What are the types of things you see in kids that their parents seem clueless about?

I think the trying to accept one's baby, and believing he or she is perfect, varies between people. And in a lot of ways is good.

Also, when a parent raises worries to professionals, often reassurance is the result. And then you're caught between admitting you're worried and looking crazy or going along and agreeing, at least outwardly, that everything is fine.

And then some people really are in denial and refuse help.

That was an interesting video, Willard. Thank you for sharing.

"Overly focused on a toy" is exactly how I describe my ASD son as a toddler. Because I was looking for ADHD signs (that's what I was diagnosed with at the time), I was generally pleased. I did not find it worrisome until it escalated to violent behavior when playmates would come too near the object of his focus. And even then, not until over age 3 after multiple people told me it was abnormal in intensity.

I think the hand-flapping of the child watching the bubbles seems normal though. Isn't it?

the baby I babysit is 9 months doesn't babble, just makes a lot of screechy and raspberry sounds, not consonants or typical babble. He avoids eye contact when you are holding him, if you try to get him to look at you he turns his whole body to avoid it,, but will look at someone across from him, just not if you are holding him. Delayed motor development, odd mannerisms, like makes a repetitive screech and when he does that his arms balloon up and he clenches his fists and turns his wrists in EVERY TIME he screeches. His mom makes excuses as to why and she is so excited he seems to be developing typical according to her.,I bring these issues to her and she has excuses, teething, missed a nap, tired, must be getting sick, etc... he has autism in his family too.

Another baby no speech, delayed motor skills, repetitive rocking while opening and closing hands.

I am constantly looking at my own baby who is 10 months. I worry cause we have much autism in my family...I think I over look into him. he flaps his arms when excited. So far that is the only thing that worries me with him. I am aware of it and am watching, If I see ANYTHING else I will be on it! I see many babies flapping, heck, maybe they will grow to have ASD...Its so hard!

but I just wonder if these babies truly have shown signs as babies or the parents just in denial, missed it, etc...

It's interesting that this topic came up because I'm a little nervous about my friends son.
Ever since he was born I felt like something was "off" about him but since I've never had a baby before I just convinced myself that I wouldn't know what to look for. He's now 16 months old and he just started walking a month ago but still hasn't spoken words yet (he doesn't even babble). He doesn't wave bye or wave hi and he doesn't imitate your noises or actions. I actually thought he was deaf but I see him reacting to the dog barking so he's probably not deaf. I asked my friend how her son interacts with other kids and she said that her son watches the other kids play and waits for them to be done with a toy before going over and playing with it. I don't know what to think. Maybe I'm just overreacting since I have autism?

No words and not even babbling should be looked into at 16 months. It's a little early to worry about him not interacting with other kids -- my recollection is that parallel play typically emerges around 30 months.

There is a growing branch of research that uses home videos from parents of kids with ASDs to better understand what they were like before the diagnosis. In this article ( http://eprints.ioe.ac.uk/4444/1/Yimrmiya2010The432.pdf ), there's a review of some of those studies, with some of their findings (starting on page 7). I realize the article as a whole is a bit dry - intended for an academic audience. But I thought I'd post it if you're interested.

Regarding regressive autism - pay attention to the review of Werner and Dawson (2005). Apparently they were not able to differentiate between regressive ASD and neurotypical kids at 12 months, but they were able to differentiate non-regressive ASD at that age. Then at 24 months, regressive and non-regressive were both differentiated from the neurotypical children.

I want to point out that this sort of research has the advantage of hindsight being 20/20. Just because they find an average difference between groups, does not mean that very early diagnosis is possible. It's the same as being able to find an average difference in height between men and women, but if I told you someone's height was 5'8", you wouldn't be able to say for certain if they were a man or a woman.

One of the predictors is eye contact, but there is no clear magic number for how much or how little eye contact determines if a baby will be neurotypical or have ASD. I'm sure there are extremes at both ends, where people could be very confident. Unfortunately most people are somewhere in that grey area, where this sort of thing is very difficult.

Edit: just wanted to translate that regressive autism part if it wasn't clear: it seems that regressive autism is a real thing, and that the kids are not distinguishable from typical kids at age 1, but tend to become distinguishable by 2. For a parent witnessing that, I imagine there could be some denial happening, but there are so many things that could be going on. There is likely a long gray period in there, perhaps lasting until age 3 or 4 for some parents, where there are some signs of regression, but it really isn't clear that it is a problematic level of regression. Many parents might just think they have a shy kid. And indeed, many parents of shy neurotypical kids may have seen the same exact behaviors. I don't think it's fair to the parents to call that denial. Some children with regression have a precipitous drop where over the course of a short time, they go from talking and using small sentences to nonverbal. It is possible that there were subtle signs present before this sudden regression, but again you have to give parents and professionals some slack for not catching those subtle signs.

I think one of the probs to recognize an development problem, is simply, that how the hell SHALL you mention that?

I will soon receive my first child, I was the youngest silbing of my parents, so I dont have longterm knowledge about toddlers. I do care for the babies of my partners brother in law, as well that I did for my cousins and friend of mines. But then again that does not give me any knowledge about propper child development. The one child was already a chitchatter with 18 months, the other one was with 30 months able to talk, but you needed "to pull them out of his mouth by force" ^^ (a saying here). So getting a yes or no once an hour, instead of nodding or headshaking, already was a success. ^^ One started directly with trying to get on his feet and walk, while the other one was totally sufficient with walking around doggy style for months. One directly engaged with other kids on the playground, and runs around without caring for you, so you always need to keep him in sight to prevent loosing him, the next one hardly will ever leave your hand around the same age and needs tons of "pushes" to engage in anything beside "standing beside you and holding your hand". ^^ One already does complete puzzle pictures easily, while the next one still has problems to place the "cow shaved wooden form" on the "cow shaved spot". ^^ Just like the 4 year old really surprised by teaching himself about the order of numbers up to three numbers, simply by using his stickerbook. So he does not call them totally right now, so 127 is not "one-hundred and twenty seven" but "one-two-seven" but he fully understood the principe that you first have two look on the total numbers of number (=3), then he needs to go to the part when the numbers that have three numbers start, and then needs to go for the first of the three numbers = 1, then for the second one = 2 and then for the last one = 7, to find the right one. While with the other kid if I tell him, that he is allowed to buy himself something for a dollar, she still asks at every item is that is more or less then a dollar. XD The one is not able to memorize what he had gotten for lunch or what they did in kindergarten today, while the next will be able to tell you what socks her dad today wore, when he left in the morning. ^^

And all of them are totally fine normal NT kids. So beside "My kid does nothing else then bumping his head against the wall." how shall I be able to recognize if my one will be developing fine? O_o

I have some regular visits at the children-doctor within my insurance, during the first years, and simply will depend on them, if they see problems or not, as long as there isn´t something really obvious. But from the experiences of the children I cared for, I really have problems to recognize "What kind of development is normal." so that I could be able to recognize abnormal development.

great conversation, thanks all! I know its complex, how can you tell when they are soooo young? I guess the lack of eye contact is a biggie...do babies stim? can they stim? the one baby I watch has done a few things that can be perceived as either a stim or a tic. it is repetitive in nature, almost ritualistic. I have a nephew who had tics as a baby, he still has them as an adult today. when I think of my own son, there were signs there when he was a baby too.

it would be cool to do a study, observe videos of babies and then check back in when the kids are older, see who has ASD and if there were signs back in early babyhood.

Many people are clueless or in denial. Also at a toung age the signs can be oh so subtle, especially in kids with a higher IQ or other special ability that can mask some of the symptoms. To a point.

In our case... I was VERY VERY suspicious all along. In my opinion the signs were ALWAYS there, but I had also educated myself on what to look for developmentally for various things.. red flags I guess... due to obvious mental illness and ASD in the family. We didn't circumvent the pediatrician and get a diagnosis (she blew us of saying that she was merely very very smart) until it really started to impact activities which was around age 4 or 4.5. Now had I NOT been scritinizing the crap out of my daughter and keeping a log of every red flag I saw I might have thought that she "suddenly" became autistic at around age 4.5.

Why?

Well prior to that the social demands on her were way, way lower. She wasn't expected to really interact, sit still, pay tons of attention etc... She went to a preschool/daycare all along, but honestly when the kids are 3, they mostly let them just do what they want. Also 3 year olds have limited social interaction with each other and that interaction is simple and not always nice. So an aloof child could go relatively unnoticed at this age. In addition things like an oral fixation and other stims are still relatively acceptable at this age. I mean 3 year olds are just nuts. But when you get a little older than that... expectations change. She entered a pre-k program where she was expected to stay seated and listen to a teacher. Further, she was expected to participate in GROUP activities. I also enrolled her in swim and peewee soccer. Relatively normal stuff or th 4-5 year old crew. She started having meltdowns. Previously, she had never so much as as had a tempter tantrum. She started exhibiting GROSS anxiety. Her stimming and oral fixation intensified. She would not talk to other kids, only monologue. She wouldn't play with them unless she could direct them and heaven help them if they didn't do it exactly right.

Like I said, had I not known already, this would have had the appearance of a sudden problem. I was actually pretty much expecting it which is why I enrolled her in pre-k. I needed to know how school might go once she started kindergarten.

Now other kids might meet their threshold or limit for social interaction and expectations a lot younger, say around age two. My personal theory is that these kids at some point, if they are un diagnosed, hit an "autistic wall" where they have reached beyond their age appropriate coping limit and it all just over flows having the appearance of sudden occurance or regression when really it was always there.

this is in interesting and kind of what I was getting at, but you said it better...thanks!

my son always had issues, and just as your DD, I sent him to pre school to hope they would figure him out. It took till he was almost 6 to get a diagnosis. I wonder with higher functioning kids, like my son, if there were always symptoms as well, just more subtle or mixed with apparently typical development. What took so long to get a diagnosis is that he had some great skills, and looked NT, you really had to live with him to see his issues. Same to this day!

It will be interesting to me, following these babies I know. The one I watch, if he were my kid, I would absolutely have him evaluated right now. I DOUBT they would diagnose him ASD at 9 months, and maybe this isn't even his issue, but I am certain he would qualify for some PT and just be followed by EI, who knows???

I agree with what was said. We had early signs and I was worried early on but at the same time it is easy to think maybe it is nothing unusual. There are so many caveats, and so many things that do overlap with typical development, but vary in intensity or frequency that a new parent has no way to gauge. Also pediatricians (the typical go-to-people) are NOT adequately trained in the details of unusual development. they are generalists and mainly know about typical development. Some are also predisposed to thinking moms and dads are hysterical and over-reacting. They are also subject to the same stereotypes about autism as the general public and it is easy for little non-textbook things to throw them off.

In our case, the pediatrician's concerns did not overlap with mine (His was behavior b/c of the crying---Mine was all the signs in my baby book that he pooh poohed that were significant--and did point to autism) and in the end we both were partially right and had different pieces of the puzzle. I was also honestly thinking a lot of what he did made sense (b/c of my own similar ways of thinking) and I thought he was just smart not to want to pretend things that made no sense like a banana being a phone--that masked it, too. I will also admit to denial and relief when told by the county he was probably fine, and was happy to drop it.

I have seen signs in another baby, and I turned out to be right, though I was wary that I nay be seeing autism where it was not b/c of our own immersion in it. They were on it, so I stayed out of it, as my opinion would not have been wanted.

Indeed, that would be a cool study! Unfortunately there are some major logistical issues with doing this sort of study right. They would need to get parents before the child was born to agree to regular video taping (and other measures). More importantly, they would need a few hundred kids with ASDs, which would require recruiting thousands of parents (because they can't predict who will have a kid with ASD, and the prevalence rate is about 1/100). That sort of study would be very expensive! This is why the ones that are out there have to look at home movies, and can't do anything more standardized.