my contentious child...

Post Reply New Topic

my 6 year old LOVES to fight with me, whether it be arguing or ignoring me, he seems to love to push my buttons. If I ask him to do something he deliberately does the opposite. Can anyone help me understand why he does this? Is it just for attention? I love the fact that he is an independent child, but sometimes, especially when his safety is a concern. He is at his worst in puplic places when he has an audience. I need him to understand why he has to follow directions, any ideas?

I think it might be called Oppositional Defiance Disorder, or something to that effect. I think my friend's son might have it.. and his behaviour sounds similar, although you have only said a few things. I'd have a google about it, anyway. I don't really know how to combat it, so can't help you there.

He does it because he gets positive reinforcement from you in the form of attention. If you want him to stop, you need to reward good behavior, and punish bad behavior. Give him lots of attention when he talks to you in a good way, and completely ignore him when he starts to fight with you.

It sounds like your child doesnt like being told what to do. That's a good thing, it means that he thinks for himself instead of just following orders. I know that most parents want an obedient child that does whatever they ask, but in reality humans dont work that way. Imagine if your boss followed you around making unreasonable demands like 'stand on your head for the next 15 minutes because I say so. Stare at a blank wall while reciting the national anthem 14 times now! Eat this dog turd I found on the lawn. Don't question me! just do what I tell you to!' You would quickly lose all respect for this person and see them as nothing more then an intrusive bother. As an adult you can quit your job and get away from this situation. As a child you cant do that, and whats worse your stuck in the situation 24/7 with no option of escape. At least your boss would pay you to follow his unreasonable requests, your child doesnt get payed at all. It is therefore not surprising that your son has lost respect for you and become defensive by arguing over everything.

Now to you, your requests of your son might seem reasonable. But to a child who doesnt know why you are telling him to do things, they dont make any sense at all. You may know that the vegetables you are asking him to eat will help his body's development. From his perspective you are just making another pointless demand by telling him to eat something that tastes horrible. Have you tried explaining to him why he should do what your requesting? Telling him "do it because I said so!" is not a reason. For example, dont tell him 'eat your vegetables', instead tell him, 'if you eat your vegetables, you will be stronger and also be sick less often, thats why I eat my vegetables'. This works better if you do what it is your asking of him, lead by example. Don't tell him not to play in the street. Tell him that if he plays in the street he is likely to be hit by a car which will be very painful. It would hurt him a lot less to just stay in the yard. Just telling your child what to do and what not to do doesnt help him. Telling him WHY he should do something or not do something is how he will learn effective ways of taking care of himself.

Perhaps you could give specific examples about what he argues with you about? It is possible that he is arguing not simply to be defiant. Some people have problems that you may not be aware of. For example, if he refuses to wash something it might be because the water feels painful on his skin. As odd as that sounds, its not uncommon. Likewise he may be so angry about repeatedly failing at something that he refuses to try it anymore.

Thank you! This sounds right on.

It would be worth checking out the book The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene. He has some awesome ideas of handling situations like this proactively. It should be available at your library if you wanted to borrow it first and then see if its worth buying. We use his approach in everything we do (with my AS 10 year old and my NT 3 year old) and his school uses the same approach. It's been really successful. It helps you problem solve without getting to the point where one or both of you explodes. Don't let the title scare you, it's a really positive book. Good luck

Be cautious with the oppositional defiant disorder idea...I only say so because I was convinced my daughter must have it. I spoke with a psychologist, and here is what she told me: a child with true ODD will do anything to defy you, even things he hates. So the test is something like this: let's say he despises broccoli. You put some on a plate, set it on the table and say, "Oh, by the way, please do not eat that broccoli. I am saving it for a snack later." If he eats it, you can truly suspect that he might have ODD. If not, well, he just might think it's fun to defy you.

Sorry, I wish I had some practical advice. My daughter is getting better. It used to be unbearable...she loves going to the park and we'd say, "We're going to the park!" and she'd scream, "No, you can't make me go! Leave me here, I don't want to go!" Nothing could happen unless it was her idea or she had decided it first. We just calmly walked her through things. It seems like she feeds off of our frustration, so we don't let ourselves get frustrated. We would just say, "We are going to the park. Please get dressed now. It's going to be fun!" Then if she refused (she usually did) I would just walk her through the actions. I got kicked a lot and had to carry a flailing, screaming little girl a lot. Sometimes I would be afraid to go to the doctor for fear they'd think my husband was abusive for all the bruises I had on my arms and legs. lol! But slowly she got the idea that we were going to do what we said. And do you know what? Every time she had fun at the park.

Thank you.... He wont defy me to do things he hates. He isnt like this all the time either, just the majority of the time, and ALWAYS in public, he has been this way all his life. I just worry because when I have to punish him afterwords for his behavior he really gets his feelings hurt and tells me, "I really do try to be good mommy, I want to be a good boy ." An example I have for his behavior is our last trip to walmart. I have to put him in the back of the shopping cart or he will make me chase him around, and I could not get him to sit down. I asked him nicely, I told him if he was a good boy he would get a sticker on his board and he still would not sit down. Every time I put something in the basket he would throw it out and laugh hysterically. So I grabbed the things I went in for quick and put them in the bottom of the cart and while I was hurrying to the checkout counter, he started bending over the front of the basket to get the items from underneath. I bent down to grab what he was trying to get from where I was standing on the other side and his weight flipped the basket over (my 13 month old daughter was strapped into the front). My daughter was not harmed but joshua landed on his head and everyone was sneering and snickering at me. Joshua doesnt react to pain so instead he started laughing, I was so overwhelmed I had to scoop up the kids and run them out to the car to check out his head. These are the situations I stress about. I try not to get overwhelmed with him when he refused to get in the bath or sit at the table, but their are times when he just HAS to listen to me. It is nice to know I am not alone in this though. I try not to get angry at him, because I am not sure how much of this behavior he has control over. I wonder if I should be punish him differently or if I should give him a break. I really appreciate everyone's responses so far.

i'm sorry. That sounds so challenging to deal with. I have joked about kid swaps before, but seriously, somtimes I think it might be easier to help the behaviors of someone else's children. That's because all of the bonding and emotions aren't tied in. Those things make it so tough...or the constant feeling that the entire world is critiquing one's parenting.

You are right---those things are dangerous. Your son and my daughter sound so much the same. She thinks some of things she does are hilareous. The other day after her dance class I stooped to pick up her bag and our coats. When I turned around she was GONE. I ran down the hallway to find her OUTSIDE by herself, ready to run into the parking lot. This doesn't phase her. She doesn't see the danger in it.

We have used lots of conversations about why things ar dangerous, etc. Social stories have helped a great deal. We pair these with behavioral incentives at times, which aren't my favorite to do (I just have a hard time with the carrot and stick idea in general) but have worked in situations like that. Perhaps stickers aren't really that motivating for your son? Look for whatever IS really motivating and use that. As an example---my daughter loves to take long baths and splash in the water, and she loves bubbles. So for a time we used bubbles as the incentive (if you can do your best at ________ you can have bubbles in your bath tonight.)

My son loves animals. We had no pets, so we set up an incentive system where he earned "pet dollars" and could use those to "purchase" all of the things he needed to house and take care of a small pet. He loved this system and it really helped him in some areas that were difficult.

I don't know if that might be helpful, but I hope so! Best wishes to you.

The problem is there isn't really much science to psychiatrists, it is pseudo-science based on a doctrine of arbitrary checklists. Don't take my word for it ask some neurologists or scientists, there are a growing number of them (at least in private) that would agree with me. So a psychiatrist says x, but you haven't even asked yourself what is this thing "oppositional defiant" and can it easily be defined and characterised? Is there any purpose in grouping that way?

As a profession don't really record data that well, and don't really have a methodical or stringent way of working unlike functionalists who at the very least have standardised tests (which makes for decent data dispite limitations). What's more, these requirements that are set out for conditions are essentially completely arbitrary. That is to say, there is no reason other then arbitrary to differentiate information that they discard or keep or what happens to it.

I could, being short of something to base my thesis on, propose that vast majority of the prison population fit into a single pathology, simply by focusing on traits that can be stereotyped, but are in really highly subjective. I’m sure some people might sleep more easily at night “knowing” these pseudo-facts. It is a good example of how psychiatry could be used to connect social ills with single conditions in one breath, but in actual fact being totally meaningless. There are some people trying to do precisely what I described, linking autism with crime, diagnosing criminals without their knowledge, contact or other supporting information.

As people struggle come to terms with uncomfortable aspects of human nature, which everybody is involved with to some extent, it is easier to externalise and explain problems that way.

I would be very careful about the ODD label.

Jonah's mom - wonderful example!!
Kids who are truly ODD usually don't work toward the typical type of rewards. Even when you find something that is extremely motivating to them, they will often deny that because the oppositional behavior takes over everything. At times, it can seem almost painful for them to do what is expected of them or asked of them. Children with ODD have difficulties across all settings. They will have difficulties with not only parents but also others in authority such as teachers and principals.

Is he in school? If so,what have they said about it?

You stated that he doesn't do it all the time and usually does it in public. Do you think it could be a reaction to overstimulation? Sometimes when things get a little chaotic (even the store), kids can react in ways that our baffling to us. When do you go to the store or out to do errands? Is it a busier time? Does he react the similarly when it is busy or not (sensory overload could occur even when the store is quiter).

Can you get a cart with two seats? It is possible that putting him in the back with food going in is also too much for him. I know you are limited on what you can do, though.

I agree on what others have said. I would try to prepare him ahead of time of the errand. Show him a social story about what his role is and what you expect from him. Saying, "Be a good boy" may not be concrete enough. I would try some role playing. My son is 5 1/2 and loves the whole role playing thing. Pair up those expected behaviors with a reinforcement (i.e., sit in the cart "criss cross legs" and only hold your car).

I would also try to go to the store or do errands on a set day and time, especially if he doesn't do well with surprises and transitions. The behaviors that you mentioned could provide enough proof that he may need a little warning and possibiliy more structure. Not staying you aren't structured, but some kids need more structure than others. This is especially true for most individuals on the spectrum.



Good luck and hang in there.

This is my thought as well - overstimulation. My son will act very inappropriately when he simply no longer knows how to act because his brain is totally overwhelmed.

Perhaps try avoiding the situations that cause the behavior until he is old enough to communicate to you what is going on inside, as my son now can. Then you can work on strategies together to help him cope better.

For years I thought my son was at his naughtyest on purpose when ever we went shopping. I learnt my lesson the hard way and stopped taking him. Now he is much older he still appears "naughty and defiant" when we have to go shopping, and yes the bigger the crowd the worse it is, however he is now able to tell me how much the people bother him, the noise bothers him, the smells etc etc. I still try not to take him now not because I think he is naughty any more, but because this hurts my son. When I do have to take him and yes he's 10 he will often sit in the trolly aswell (his legs hurt from all the walking, and its all much worse because all his senses are being attacked at once) I give him something to hold/distract him- it might be a book, or a video game Just something he can look at whilst we are in the store, or I take his nintendo ds. Good luck. I remember the horror of trying to shop with a child that was running up and down the isles, throwing things out of my trolley hiding in amongst stuff etc etc. I even had strangers tell me off, tell me to disipline my child. we went threw 3 different supermarkets in a short space of time.

It sounds like you might benefit from the marble method. Of course this doesnt solve all of life's problems, but it is often an effective solution when dealing with young children.

The idea is to have a system of rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior in a way where the punishments dont leave your child scared and full of anxiety. You simply start out with a bag and 5 small marbles in it. Whenever your son does something good, he can put a marble in his bag (let him put it in by himself). Whenever he does something bad you take a marble out (this is why you have to start with marbles already in it). After a certain period of time, he can exchange his marbles for prizes. What exactly qualifies for giving and taking away marbles is up to you. Start with simple things such as gaining a marble for waiting 5 minutes patiently, and losing a marble for throwing things out of the cart. Also, you can choose how long you go before counting up the marbles and what the prizes will be. You can start off by counting the marbles everyday after dinner. If he has 10+ marbles, he gets his favorite desert, 15+ marbles and he can play an extra 30 mins, etc. If he has 12 marbles then use up 10 and roll over the 2 extra marbles so he starts again with 7 marbles. That way he doesnt stop behaving once he has reached his 10 marble goal.

As he gets more mature you can move to only counting the marbles once per week, and giving out bigger prizes. You can also vary the marbles gained and lost for his actions to more appropriately reflect the seriousness. Throwing stuff out of the cart may only lose him 1 marble, but running across the street will lose him 2 or 3 marbles. Likewise, you can motivate him to do things more effectively by giving out more then 1 marble.

The idea here is that your son's actions do have consequences, but they can be remedied by appropriate behavior. If he acts poorly and loses a marble, he can change his behavior and gain that marble back. This helps to teach him appropriate behaviors without him becoming distraught and anxiety ridden over punishment. You can give him back the marbles when he changes his behavior, thus restoring his self-confidence. You cant take back yelling at him. Also, it often works better then yelling, nagging or physical punishment as those create a fear of the parent. Giving him the option to earn prizes is often better at developing a good bond.

The most important thing to this is how you go about implementing the method. If you just wait till the end of the day then think back and say, 'well he was good here so thats a marble, but bad here, so he lost 2 marbles' etc. then it wont work out very well. Incorporate this into your interactions as they happen. The first step is to clearly explain to your son what will get him a marble, and how he will lose a marble. As I have said before, unless your son knows what you want, and why you want him to act that way, he is unlikely to act correctly. You must explain what should happen and why. Social stories as suggested by natesmom are a good way of letting him know how exactly you expect him to act and why he should act that way.

As you then go about your day try to put an effort into rewarding him for good behaviors. I know it is human nature to focus more on problems then successes, but you should try to give out more marbles then you take. Basically whenever he is patient, kind, helpful, or anything else you like about him, you can give him a marble. You can also motive him to act more this way with the promise of more marbles. For example, "I have to use the bathroom, I want you to sit here outside for a few minutes while I am in there. If you stay, I will give you a marble. But if you run off and I have to find you, you'll lose a marble." You could also get him to help out with things like 'if you put out the silverware for dinner, you will get a marble', or 'could you please go get your baby sister's milk bottle, I will give you a marble'.

If you are going to take away his marbles, it is best to warn him of his offending behavior first. Children arent naturally good, so he may act inappropriately without thinking about it. If you immediately punish him for bad behaviors before he has a chance to correct himself then your teaching him to constantly be afraid and wary of punishment. It is better to give him a warning first, tell him what he is doing wrong, and also tell him what the appropriate way to act is. Then if he proceeds with the bad action, you can take the marble. But as you take the marble, make sure you let him know why, and also that he can get it back by acting appropriately. For example:

*Child throws loaf of bread outside cart*
Parent> Don't throw the groceries outside the cart, Ive already told you I dont like that, and Ill take a marble if you keep doing it. Instead, you can sit patiently in the cart and play with your toy car.
*Child throws the loaf of bread outside the cart again*
Parent> I just warned you not to do that, if you throw something else outside of the cart I will take a marble.
*Child throws loaf outside cart again*
Parent> Alright, you've lost yourself a marble. (Parent takes the marble) If you did what I said and stopped throwing things outside of the cart then you wouldnt have lost it. Now if you sit patiently and play with your toy while we go shopping, you can get your marble back.

The benefit of this method is that you can give him rewards and punishment in any situation. It is fairly easy to carry a small bag of marbles in your purse, and give them to your son when you are out shopping or doing whatever. Likewise you can take a marble out of your son's bag at any time. You cant give your child a time out when you are shopping.

It doesnt have to be marbles, perhaps Little colored slips of paper would work better for you. I only suggest small marbles because they are easy to carry around and it gives your son something to see and physically hold. Taking and giving out 'points' that your son cant see isnt as effective as when he actually gets to see his prize, or has the marble physically taken away from him. If you go with this method, you will probably want to get him a marble holder, something like a pocket knife holder that clips on his belt will do fine. Just make sure it snaps shut tightly so marbles dont fall out.

And of course I must reiterate what I said in my first response. Be aware that there may be external factors on your child which you arent aware of. To you, the grocery store might not be bad, but for your son it can be a very loud, hectic, and overwhelming place. Try to work on mitigating external stimulus, and you may find things improving greatly. Simply letting your son wear earmuffs, and giving him something to do (like play on his Game boy) may yield great results.

Thanks for sharing the marble idea! It works a lot like our "pet dollars" did, but it's portable and the rewards can be doled out more quickly, which is great! I think I might try it for some things we've been working on.

Dang tracker - brillant, absolutely brillant!