Do you believe that conservatives are alive?

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26 Feb 2009, 11:27 pm

Spazzdog, If you reread my posts without having preconceived notions about me, then you will see that I did not patronize you.

Quote:

patronizing - (used of behavior or attitude) characteristic of those who treat others with condescension

My attitude toward you was that I didn't handle you with kid gloves and tip toe around your schizophrenia. If anything I was coming off as challenging. If I believed you were beneath me I wouldn't have bothered to respond to you or cared about what you thought. I've been open and said that I have hallucinations too.

In the past, schizophrenics were thought to be possessed by demons. After an exorcism they often were cured. This is very unlike modern times where schizophrenics typically get worse after a diagnosis. Medication doesn't cure the problem. We should be taught how to analyze the symbolism of our hallucinations and assimilate them into reality. The word genius comes from the word demon.

Quote:

Genius

Origin: L. Genius, prop, the superior or divine nature which is innate in everything, the spirit, the tutelar deity or genius of a person or place, taste, talent, genius, from genere, gignere, to beget, bring forth. See gender, and cf. Engine.

1. A good or evil spirit, or demon, supposed by the ancients to preside over a man's destiny in life; a tutelary deity; a supernatural being; a spirit, good or bad. Cf. Jinnee. The unseen genius of the wood. (Milton) We talk of genius still, but with thought how changed! The genius of Augustus was a tutelary demon, to be sworn by and to receive offerings on an altar as a deity. (Tylor)

2. The peculiar structure of mind with whoch each individual is endowed by nature; that disposition or aptitude of mind which is peculiar to each man, and which qualifies him for certain kinds of action or special success in any pursuit; special taste, inclination, or disposition; as, a genius for history, for poetry, or painting.

3. Peculiar character; animating spirit, as of a nation, a religion, a language.

4. Distinguished mental superiority; uncommon intellectual power; especially, superior power of invention or origination of any kind, or of forming new combinations; as, a man of genius. Genius of the highest kind implies an unusual intensity of the modifyng power. (Coleridge)

5. A man endowed with uncommon vigor of mind; a man of superior intellectual faculties; as, Shakespeare was a rare genius.

Synonym: genius, talent.

genius implies high and peculiar gifts of natu c81 re, impelling the mind to certain favorite kinds of mental effort, and producing new combinations of ideas, imagery, etc. Talent supposes general strength of intellect, with a peculiar aptitude for being molded and directed to specific employments and valuable ends and purposes. Genius is connected more or less with the exercise of imagination, and reaches its ends by a kind of intuitive power. Talent depends more on high mental training, and a perfect command of all the faculties, memory, judgment, sagacity, etc. Hence we speak of a genius for poetry, painting. Etc, and a talent for business or diplomacy. Among english orators, lord Chatham was distinguished for his genius; William Pitt for his preeminent talents, and especially his unrivaled talent for debate. Genius loci [L], the genius or presiding divinity of a place; hence, the pervading spirit of a place or institution, as of a college, etc.

It wouldn't hurt to try to get to know your demons. If you are afraid of them then you will just attract malevolent ones who will feed on fear and cause you to injure others in order to feel powerful.

http://www.neurosemantics.com/index.php ... Itemid=133

I know many people will probably chastise me for saying these things. It's not something I am saying with a careless attitude. I've known many schizophrenics so I am speaking through compassion and empathy. Plus, I've always suspected I was schizophrenic and I've learned how to battle it through spiritual means. Read that book I posted. Discerning Spirits gives a historical account of schizophrenics before they were considered to have simply a biological disorder.

TheOneGreatBob
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27 Feb 2009, 12:09 am

What is the best way to describe the behavior of those on the right? The best way to describe the behavior of those on the left.

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MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 8:32 am

SpazzDog wrote:

MrMisanthrope, but do they need to care? Who cares why they do it. It doesn't matter if you're getting what you need..

That was my point. I was agreeing with you dude...

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MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 8:39 am

Magnus ...

FWIW, my wife has Rapid Cycling BiPolar I with Schizo-affective & Psychotic aspects.

If thhere is an alternative to drugs or confinement I'd like to hear it...

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SpazzDog
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27 Feb 2009, 11:43 am

Interesting you bring that up Magnus, because I've been interested in the daimonic since I learned about Paganini. It wasn't until I read Rollo May's Love and Will that I started to see aspects of myself in other historical figures. He quoted Plato and Goethe among others about the daimonic. Learning that I have so much of that in common with Goethe has been a major affirmation in my life since sometimes I don't know if my thoughts are "real" thoughts or instead delusions. Sometimes, I want the daimonic to totally take me over. But the consequences of that are too great since I know what happens. When I was a teen I became overwhelmed with the daimonic, but in a destructive way which ended with me spending most of my time as a 15 year old in a facility. Looking back, I spent so much time fighting it not realizing that it needs to be harnessed instead. So now I'm left wondering if I'm crazy enough or if I have permanently lost what I worked so hard to suppress. Or what did I even try to suppress to begin with? Only the negative side of it?

On the link provided, my life follows the Romantic concept of the Hero possessed by the daimonic. This quote in particular rings true with my experiences:

"In the depths, in hitting bottom, he ultimately discovers his own fate and tragedy, and in a final climax is either broken or driven towards rebirth and self-knowledge. The glory of the daimonic is in the humble resurrection, though it claims more than it sets free, as many a foolish men are drawn into its vacuum never to return."

I see myself as one of those lucky ones who was driven towards rebirth and self-knowledge instead of destruction.

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Magnus
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27 Feb 2009, 1:22 pm

MrMisanthrope,

There is no harm in taking a spiritual stance on your wife's condition. I'm not advocating taking her off meds right away. There will be a lot of learning to do. It's really a solitary journey. In that book Discerning Spirits there are many references to cases of demonic possession which you may find useful. Also, not all spirits are malevolent and the ones that are may not be stuck in their ways forever. It's nothing to be afraid of. She will would need unconditional support in this, but ultimately it will he up to her to regain control of her mind.

Spazzdog, you sound like you do have a genius. The biggest challenge may be to keep having faith in yourself through difficult times when all evidence and everyone around you is telling you that you are disabled. You will be what you believe yourself to be. If you think you are just crazy then that's all that will come of your life. I hope you achieve your goals instead, and continue to grow and get even stronger.

MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 1:32 pm

Magnus wrote:

MrMisanthrope,

There is no harm in taking a spiritual stance on your wife's condition. I'm not advocating taking her off meds right away.

Actually, there is great harm in it. The last time she went off her meds she tried to slit my throat in my sleep. Fortunately, I'm both a light sleeper and significantly trained in self defense tactics.

Neurochemical disorders are not "possession" and are not "cured" through non chemical means.

Hell... may as well become a Scientologist and try to pay the "Thetans" off of her as pray the "demons" out of her.

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SpazzDog
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27 Feb 2009, 1:45 pm

My friend has a daughter in law who went schizo (literally). She killed one of my friend's dog and tried to attack my friend as well.

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Magnus
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27 Feb 2009, 2:08 pm

Quote:

Magnus wrote:
MrMisanthrope,

There is no harm in taking a spiritual stance on your wife's condition. I'm not advocating taking her off meds right away.

MrMisanthrope wrote:
Actually, there is great harm in it. The last time she went off her meds she tried to slit my throat in my sleep. Fortunately, I'm both a light sleeper and significantly trained in self defense tactics.

Neurochemical disorders are not "possession" and are not "cured" through non chemical means.

Hell... may as well become a Scientologist and try to pay the "Thetans" off of her as pray the "demons" out of her.

Apparently you didn't understand what I said. Reread my post. If it wouldn't hurt her to view the condition as a spiritual one and if in the past people have been cured of schizophrenia by doing so, why would you hesitate to investigate it? I think it's because it's just too different from what you already believe.

As for scientology, I don't know anything about it so I can't say whether it's right or wrong. However, I realize that most people who are also unfamiliar with it quickly dismiss it as coo koo clocky. It doesn't seem rational to me to judge something that I have no experience with.

Conservatives don't have to necessarily be just right wingers. The conservative approach is the p**** footin' way of waiting behind in line and hoping that someone else will figure things out and tell you how they are. Then the conservative way of thinking is to just think in a way that will not get you into trouble or make you look different. I just like to find ways that work. Usually the best ways are the simplest too.

MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 2:22 pm

There is a lot of good alternative medicine out there. This is not one of them. What you are suggesting, if followed by someone with a genuine (vs psychosomatic) neurochemical disorder, will likely result in grave harm to the afflicted person or those around them.

Anecdotal stories from an era when few people knew how to write, much less understood any sort of mental disorder, are hardly a sound basis for taking medical decisions.

Herbal "folk" remedies, accupuncture, etc all have a much better documented history than any sort of "possession".

Most issues of "possesion", whether "demonia" or "alien" rely on the logical falacy of proving the negative.

Psychosomatic illnesses, hysteria, etc over the issue of "demons" all satisfy Occam far better.

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Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

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Magnus
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27 Feb 2009, 2:45 pm

I speak from my own experience.

MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 3:22 pm

Magnus wrote:

I speak from my own experience.

And, as you said before:

Magnus wrote:

There are many people who claim to have been healed by such unorthodox methods. Unfortunately, these cases are just brushed aside as anomolies at best and at worst they look at the ex-patient like a wishful thinking ignoramus.

So far, I'm not sure of the former or the latter, especially considering this:

Magnus wrote:

Why aren't these people being given serious attention and why isn't the placebo affect given proper investigation? The reason why is that they won't understand it, and they know it, so they won't even touch it.

If you think that Pharmas don't do placebo studies on their drugs, especially their schedule 1 psychopharmaceuticals it's probably the latter.

If you think you can do placebo studies on exorcisims/demon whispering, then certainly the latter.

FWIW, halucinations can be caused by many things totally unrelated to schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder or other neurochemical disorders. Anything from sleep deprevation to drug use to psychosomatic "illness" to simple attention-seeking hysteria. Some of these can MIMIC neurochemical disorders, but the "fact" that they can go away/be "cured" without medication (including herbal medication) definitively shows that they are not biological in nature. Te drugs that keep my wife stable would put me into a coma. That alone shows that they are a biological necessity for her and there are no Demons/Aliens involved.

Neurochemical Disorders ARE biological in nature and to suggest that someone with a physical ailment/biological disorder seek "treatment" that does not address the underlying BIOLOGICAL condition is extremely destructive and stigmatizing.

I'm glad your hallucinations went away. But if they did so without drugs, it was because YOU decided, conciously or unconciously to stop having them. It had nothing to do with Demons or Aliens or whatever.

I'm all for alternative MEDICINE, but suggesting that people with Neurochemical Disorders are possessed by demons borders on the criminal. It's hard enough for people with mental disorders - including AS - to get any respect at all, and here, on an ASD site, you want to suggest they are possessed.

You're damn skippy I'll chastise you for it.

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Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

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protest_the_hero
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27 Feb 2009, 5:00 pm

Conservativism is far more common in America than in most of the rest of the world. They are the least pro Obama.
The northern USA isn't as bad as the south because they're closer to Canada(where I live);)

Magnus
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27 Feb 2009, 5:01 pm

MrMisanthrope wrote:

Quote:

If you think that Pharmas don't do placebo studies on their drugs, especially their schedule 1 psychopharmaceuticals it's probably the latter.

They study the placebo group as a control group. It's not given any merit. My stance is that people have more control over our own health and mental state than is popularly believed. I also said that it wouldn't hurt to "supplement" with spirituality. Notice how I worded my posts.

How many schizophrenics have you known? Many people think they are weird and creepy and this only makes their mental state worse. I suggested that they be instructed on how to interpret their hallucinations. What is the harm in that?
I would only recommend this if the person believes that he/she is possessed.
If a schizophrenic doesn't speak of demons, I wouldn't either.

I've seen schizophrenic people demonstrate psi abilities and go into trance states. This confuses them especially when they know something about a person that that person would rather keep secret. Then the person lies and makes the schizophrenic question their sanity even more. As time goes by, their mental state deteriorates more and more until then finally they lose their mind. There is a point of no return and sadly many become so lost that they can't find there way back. I don't know your wife so you are a better judge as to what she is going through.

MrMisanthrope
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27 Feb 2009, 5:24 pm

Magnus wrote:

MrMisanthrope wrote:

Quote:

If you think that Pharmas don't do placebo studies on their drugs, especially their schedule 1 psychopharmaceuticals it's probably the latter.

A significant number. Along with several other diagnosis. I have been a facilitator for &/or been an advocate with the National Alliance on Mental Illness for the past 15 years. Occupational hazard when you live with someone with a serious chroniic neurochemical disorder.

Quote:

Many people think they are weird and creepy and this only makes their mental state worse. I suggested that they be instructed on how to interpret their hallucinations. What is the harm in that?

The harm in that comes when somebody decides that "interpretation" is better than or a replacement for treating the neurochemical imballance that is causing the hallucinations.

The harm come in reinforcing an ancient stigma against people with neurochemical disorders and making thm and others think that Voodoo is the way to be HEALED thank jebus... Or maybe buurning at the stake would be better?

Quote:

I would only recommend this if the person believes that he/she is possessed.
If a schizophrenic doesn't speak of demons, I wouldn't either.

Quote:

I've seen schizophrenic people demonstrate psi abilities and go into trance states. This confuses them especially when they know something about a person that that person would rather keep secret.

There's a Million Dollars in that if you can prove it. http://www.randi.org/site/

Quote:

Then the person lies and makes the schizophrenic question their sanity even more. As time goes by, their mental state deteriorates more and more until then finally they lose their mind. There is a point of no return and sadly many become so lost that they can't find there way back. I don't know your wife so you are a better judge as to what she is going through.

People's mental state deteriorates from having continued and ongoing chemical imbalance in the brain - not from confusion/ questioning their sanity.

You really ought to learn more about this stuff before you go telling people that they can pray away a treatable medical condition.

That sort of rhetoric hurts EVERYONE with a "mental disorder", whether Treatable (neurochemical) or less so (ASDs).

We don't need the additional dark-ages Stigma thank you.

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I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

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Haliphron
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27 Feb 2009, 5:24 pm

Magnus wrote:

You've been watching The Exorcist a little too much Magnus..... :lol:

Devils, demons and "unclear spirits" are medieval superstition used to explain mental illness-which until the mid-20th century we knew NOTHING about! Dont forget Occams razor. :wink:

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