Evolution vs Creationism, Why are we having this silly debat

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Abgal64
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27 Jan 2012, 5:56 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
...

Fair enough. Do you have any proof of this happening? Clip from a newspaper? Segment on a news program?

Or am I expected to take your word on faith?

I can probably get other people who witnessed this to confirm. Otherwise, this did not appear in any newspapers.
I have experienced many other miracles, but mostly there is only myself and maybe a couple of other people who can confirm them.
The Bible tells us that God shall not be put to the test. This may be part of that.
If the Christian god cannot be put to the test then s/he is inconsistent with everything else which is confirmed. Why not make an exception for sapient extraterrestrials, which, IMHO, are much more probable even if equally substantiated with evidence in that in both cases there is none.

To play the devil's advocate (no pun intended), have a look at these sites associated with one Christianity's closest major relatives, Islam:

http://islamtomorrow.com/allah.asp

Allah, which BTW is a term also used by other Abrahamists, including Christians and Jews, in the Arabic-speaking world to refer to the divinity they believe in, is, according to the two sources above and below, actually verifiable. Thus, why are you not a Muslim when the Qurɂān, unlike the Bible, says that god can be proved!

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

This is intended for an atheist but you may also find it of interest.

I am a humanistic religious atheist, BTW, and as I have little interest in Islamic theology, I am certainly not the best person to ask on this forum about the religion of those who have surrendered (as the world "Islam" basically means in the original Arabic) (from what I know that would be mikecartwright (misspelling?)) However, I am a Sinophile, so I could be of service in helping you understand Confucianism, Mohism and to a lesser extent Legalism and Daoism. I also am independently studying the civilizations of the Andes, which is closely tied with their faiths in many instances: I would enjoy a discussion of comparative theology with you.


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27 Jan 2012, 9:03 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
Pascal's wager would certainly apply to false religions. It is an argument to seek God, but not necessarily an argument for Christianity.
As I stated much earlier, the existence of God is an empirical matter which cannot be resolved by pure logic. (Even that, by the way is Biblical.) The best empirical evidence is that the writers of the NT observed many miracles during Jesus' life, with His resurrection, and through themselves after Pentacost. Many practicing Christians have observed similar evidence, and the vast majority of those observers are not crazy. Some people choose to believe this evidence while others choose to deny it, and the strength of the evidence seems to have little bearing on people's choice in this. (That also is Biblical).

Except the issue is that if there is no clear way to seek a God, it no longer appears clear the course of action that ought to be taken. Hell, even for materialists, one might seek cryogenics as a way of living forever.

The other problem with the Pascal's wager kind of argument is shown with Pascal's mugging: http://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/pascal.pdf Basically, the problem is ANY proposal of infinite gain.

As for the writers of the NT... the problem is that there is no corroboration despite some pretty extreme miracles, including y'know, the dead being raised and haunting the Jerusalem area. There have also been contradictions in the text, which undermines our belief in the reliability of it. (See the death of Judas between Matt and Acts)

Many practitioners of other religions have proclaimed many miracles. Get that through your skull. The fact that any fool can claim a miracle has been known for centuries. Even obviously false religions have their own claims. As well, frankly, non-insane people are utterly capable of hallucinating, do you need me to pull out some stats on hallucinations? If I recall correctly approximately 15% of the populace has auditory hallucinations.(or at least up to that amount in certain studies) If we throw in other variables this can get icky.

.... Ok, and believing arbitrarily is also pretty common across religions. The issue is that we should expect a situation where the evidence dictates the conclusions.



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27 Jan 2012, 9:06 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
I had begun attending a student prayer meeting (my first experience with group prayer), and students prayed with me for this person. I went to the faculty member and offered to pray with him. He accepted the offer. At the end of the prayer, he jumped up and said that he felt perfect. He showed no signs of cancer after that until near his death some ten years later. He came to a student prayer meeting and told me that he saw a glow around us as we prayed. The students and I prayed for four other cancer patients in succession, each of whom had been diagnosed as terminal. One had already collected viatical benefits from his life insurance. All four of these patients became well and lived for years. After that, word of this got around my campus and many people began asking for prayer on terminal illnesses. Somehow, this healing stopped, and the other people were not healed.
This is just one of many miracles I have personally witnessed, but I mention it since it involves a miracle for an avowed atheist.

The issue is that we can't really verify your claim, and even then, misdiagnosis is entirely possible, as are details you do not know about.

I mean, let's even face it, you aren't actually the most credible witness to this event, simply because you are a participant, and you have really no incentive towards correct data gathering.

EVEN IF your story is true, it doesn't necessitate your God's existence because of the existence of miracle claims in many other cultures. A trickster god could account for most of this.



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27 Jan 2012, 9:07 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
...

Fair enough. Do you have any proof of this happening? Clip from a newspaper? Segment on a news program?

Or am I expected to take your word on faith?

I can probably get other people who witnessed this to confirm. Otherwise, this did not appear in any newspapers.
I have experienced many other miracles, but mostly there is only myself and maybe a couple of other people who can confirm them.
The Bible tells us that God shall not be put to the test. This may be part of that.


God shall not be put to test=I will never believe in god. I do not believe in anything that denies reason.


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27 Jan 2012, 9:12 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:

How coincidental that none of this "evidence" ever seems to appear to people that don't believe in the first place.

Evidence appears to both believers and unbelievers. Years ago an atheistic fellow faculty member managed to get on my tenure committee and voted against me. I received tenure anyway, but found myself hating this person. I prayed to not hate him but to love him instead. Within a week, the faculty member was diagnosed with cancer of the pancreas. He underwent an operation during which the physicians concluded that the cancer had metastacized. They did not want to remove the tumor, and told him that he had only a month or two to live. Other faculty hated this person so much, that at the next faculty meeting they told him they were glad they he would not be around to vote against them.
I had begun attending a student prayer meeting (my first experience with group prayer), and students prayed with me for this person. I went to the faculty member and offered to pray with him. He accepted the offer. At the end of the prayer, he jumped up and said that he felt perfect. He showed no signs of cancer after that until near his death some ten years later. He came to a student prayer meeting and told me that he saw a glow around us as we prayed. The students and I prayed for four other cancer patients in succession, each of whom had been diagnosed as terminal. One had already collected viatical benefits from his life insurance. All four of these patients became well and lived for years. After that, word of this got around my campus and many people began asking for prayer on terminal illnesses. Somehow, this healing stopped, and the other people were not healed.
This is just one of many miracles I have personally witnessed, but I mention it since it involves a miracle for an avowed atheist.

At that rate of miracles, someone in that prayer group was a saint. :wink:



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27 Jan 2012, 10:29 pm

Abgal64 wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
abacacus wrote:
...

Allah, which BTW is a term also used by other Abrahamists, including Christians and Jews, in the Arabic-speaking world to refer to the divinity they believe in, is, according to the two sources above and below, actually verifiable. Thus, why are you not a Muslim when the Qurɂān, unlike the Bible, says that god can be proved!

.

I am well aware of what you are stating about the name Allah, and have consequently defended Islam on that point against unfounded attacks by Christian fundamentalists. Of course, that made me unpopular in those churches, even where I was a member. This is part of my being "wrong planet" even within Christianity. Fundamentalists do not like much of what I say, and fundamentalist churches have even made not-too-subtle hints that I should leave. (The most extreme was a church which had a semi-secret meeting of elders in which they voted that I was insane. This was leaked to my wife who felt insulted that they thought they had discovered something that she would not have realized after ten years of marriage. I did not leave the church for that reason, however as I believe it is unChristian to leave a church for personal reasons.) On the other hand I am too much of a literal interpreter to follow mainstream Protestant or traditional churches.
I am also something of a sinophile. I apologize to my Chinese students for the West's part in the Opium Wars.



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28 Jan 2012, 1:10 am

ProfessorP wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Not to a better interpretation but to one that suits what you want to believe.

.

I disagree that my method "suits what (I) want to believe". Finding the interpretation which is consistent across multiple verses reduces my choices. Often, there is a unique result. I believe, however, that this is the correct method since the Bible tells us to look at (the Hebrew equivalent of) each syllable and punctuation mark. That detailed observation, by the way, leads to Christian interpretation of the OT. For example, in the first line of the Bible, where it says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", the Hebrew word used for God is "Elohim". That is plural. It is one of many verses for which the exact word choices are difficult to explain except in light of Christ.


I just don't like ad hoc arguments. I like parsimony the best.

But whatever rocks your boat.



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28 Jan 2012, 1:38 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
I am also something of a sinophile. I apologize to my Chinese students for the West's part in the Opium Wars.
What do you fancy about the Middle Kingdom :) ?

I am fascinated by how China has stayed together as a more or less unified and intact culture for over two millennia. I also like the meritocratic aspects of Chinese culture, their culture's great reverence for the intellectual and how they seem to usually be the among most level-headed civilizations on the globe. I frankly believe Chinese culture is superior to most other cultures, including in many ways Western Culture. It is interesting how Rome collapsed, never to reunite, yet Imperial China only went away for but a while. By far my biggest problem with Chinese Civilization is the sexism, but this seems, at least to me, to be changing thanks to the PRC's ideological system.


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28 Jan 2012, 2:08 pm

Abgal64 wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
I am also something of a sinophile. I apologize to my Chinese students for the West's part in the Opium Wars.
What do you fancy about the Middle Kingdom :) ?

I am fascinated by how China has stayed together as a more or less unified and intact culture for over two millennia. I also like the meritocratic aspects of Chinese culture, their culture's great reverence for the intellectual and how they seem to usually be the among most level-headed civilizations on the globe. I frankly believe Chinese culture is superior to most other cultures, including in many ways Western Culture. It is interesting how Rome collapsed, never to reunite, yet Imperial China only went away for but a while. By far my biggest problem with Chinese Civilization is the sexism, but this seems, at least to me, to be changing thanks to the PRC's ideological system.

As we both know, China developed a very high level of culture much earlier than did Europe. I used to very much admire the meritocracy , but I have wondered if its presentation in history is too glorified. I wonder now about the extent that natural human tendencies to corruption would have influenced China's stated meritocracy.
The intellectual problem with respect to China that I have been pondering for at least a year is "how much did the Opium Wars hurt the Chinese economy and culture?" My first view of the problem is that the Opium Wars were devastating. Thinking about all of that further, however, I am not sure. The statistics I read on the number of opium users in China at the peak are that it was not a high percentage of the population. I believe that this is a question of enormous importance for politics in general and specifically for geo-politics and economics. I believe that Maoism (and consequently all of Chinese history for the past century) was a reaction to perceptions about the Opium Wars.
Perhaps, that topic could become an interesting blog by itself.



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28 Jan 2012, 3:02 pm

ProfessorP wrote:
Abgal64 wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
I am also something of a sinophile. I apologize to my Chinese students for the West's part in the Opium Wars.
What do you fancy about the Middle Kingdom :) ?

I am fascinated by how China has stayed together as a more or less unified and intact culture for over two millennia. I also like the meritocratic aspects of Chinese culture, their culture's great reverence for the intellectual and how they seem to usually be the among most level-headed civilizations on the globe. I frankly believe Chinese culture is superior to most other cultures, including in many ways Western Culture. It is interesting how Rome collapsed, never to reunite, yet Imperial China only went away for but a while. By far my biggest problem with Chinese Civilization is the sexism, but this seems, at least to me, to be changing thanks to the PRC's ideological system.

As we both know, China developed a very high level of culture much earlier than did Europe. I used to very much admire the meritocracy , but I have wondered if its presentation in history is too glorified. I wonder now about the extent that natural human tendencies to corruption would have influenced China's stated meritocracy.
The intellectual problem with respect to China that I have been pondering for at least a year is "how much did the Opium Wars hurt the Chinese economy and culture?" My first view of the problem is that the Opium Wars were devastating. Thinking about all of that further, however, I am not sure. The statistics I read on the number of opium users in China at the peak are that it was not a high percentage of the population. I believe that this is a question of enormous importance for politics in general and specifically for geo-politics and economics. I believe that Maoism (and consequently all of Chinese history for the past century) was a reaction to perceptions about the Opium Wars.
Perhaps, that topic could become an interesting blog by itself.


Thats absurd.

The Opium Wars were a sympotom,not the disease.

The disease was the two centuries of defeat and humiliation suffered by China at the hands of the foriegn barbarians.

The foriegn barbarians being - the maritime powers of Western Europe, and Czarist Russia, and to a lesser degree- the USA.

The opium wars were just the opening chapter in which foriegner powers not only extorted prividege from China, but ended up running China.

Remember that the whole Indian subcontinent was drawn into the British Empire. China came very close to being divied up between Britain, France, and Czarist Russia.

Will Rogers quipped "how would you feel if China had gunboats on the Mississippi- 'just to protect our laundries in Memphis'?

The ulitmate humilation came when China's smaller nieghbor Japan was able to modernize faster than China enabling Japan to invade and conquer much of China's soil in the years leading to World War Two.

So the rise of Mao was a "response" to the West colliding with China. But it was a response to the whole centurey that started with the Opium Wars and culminated with the Japanese occupation of much of China proper and all of Manchuria.

But the whole period is just blip compared the length of Chinese history.

I agree that it is interesting how China became a unified state about the same time that the Roman Empire formed. But the Chinese state is still here and Rome is long gone.



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28 Jan 2012, 3:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
Abgal64 wrote:
ProfessorP wrote:
The intellectual problem with respect to China that I have been pondering for at least a year is "how much did the Opium Wars hurt the Chinese economy and culture?" My first view of the problem is that the Opium Wars were devastating. Thinking about all of that further, however, I am not sure. The statistics I read on the number of opium users in China at the peak are that it was not a high percentage of the population. I believe that this is a question of enormous importance for politics in general and specifically for geo-politics and economics. I believe that Maoism (and consequently all of Chinese history for the past century) was a reaction to perceptions about the Opium Wars.
Perhaps, that topic could become an interesting blog by itself.


Thats absurd.

The Opium Wars were a sympotom,not the disease.

The disease was the two centuries of defeat and humiliation suffered by China at the hands of the foriegn barbarians.

The foriegn barbarians being - the maritime powers of Western Europe, and Czarist Russia, and to a lesser degree- the USA.

The opium wars were just the opening chapter in which foriegner powers not only extorted prividege from China, but ended up running China.

Remember that the whole Indian subcontinent was drawn into the British Empire. China came very close to being divied up between Britain, France, and Czarist Russia.

Will Rogers quipped "how would you feel if China had gunboats on the Mississippi- 'just to protect our laundries in Memphis'?

The ulitmate humilation came when China's smaller nieghbor Japan was able to modernize faster than China enabling Japan to invade and conquer much of China's soil in the years leading to World War Two.

So the rise of Mao was a "response" to the West colliding with China. But it was a response to the whole centurey that started with the Opium Wars and culminated with the Japanese occupation of much of China proper and all of Manchuria.

But the whole period is just blip compared the length of Chinese history.

I agree that it is interesting how China became a unified state about the same time that the Roman Empire formed. But the Chinese state is still here and Rome is long gone.

The reason that I am pondering this is that the answer is not clear. There is a good "first face" argument that the Opium Wars were very important to the decline of China. By "the Opium wars" I mean to include the consequences of treaties signed as the result of those wars. My best reading of the statistics is that China had a per capita income which was much higher than any in Europe prior to the Opium Wars. It fell precipitously after those wars. How much, when, and why are questions for which I am seeking answers. I have not researched to see if there are academic articles on this. If someone knows of one, please give me a cite.
Also, I am not sure what parts of the China-Rome comparison are valid. It has some aspects of an apples/oranges comparison.
This is so far off the topic of evolution, that if many people want to discuss this, a separate blog would be appropriate. I continue to believe that this is an unresolved issue which is very important for history, politics, economics, public policy (including US drug laws), etc.



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28 Jan 2012, 10:06 pm

Part of the reason that China succumbed to humiliation by the Westerners and by Japan was an entrenched arrogance on the part of the Chinese elite; they believed that China was perfect as it was, and that allowing western influence or 'modernization' would only weaken their country.



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08 Feb 2012, 5:22 pm

The people who are most vociferous in their condemnation of creationism often tend to be the sort of people who believe in the nonsense of racial equality.
The thing is: the question of whether or not the earth is 6,000 years old has far less impact on the average person's life than the question of whether or not the races of man are the same.
Really, combining atheism with a belief that somehow nature has conspired to make the human races all the same "under the skin" - despite all the evidence to the contrary - is stupider than anything creationists come out with.

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08 Feb 2012, 5:59 pm

codarac, are you going to ever get around to telling us what exactly your racial theories are? You don't seem to have a problem talking about the inequalities between your racial conceptions, yet you don't seem to outline *what* these inequalities are. White people are the best? Indian people are inferior? What are your hypotheses? What supports them?


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08 Feb 2012, 6:00 pm

codarac wrote:
the nonsense of racial equality.


That's a really clever table, and it seems like the sort of thing that might be true.

But here's the actual situation, as I see it: it is impossible to separate out cultural factors and stereotype threat. Therefore, people are talking nonsense if they claim to know anything at all about the connection between race and intelligence.

So, people who have a strong opinion on the topic are simply saying what they would like to be true. It's easy to see why people might want there to be no link between race and intelligence. But here's the tricky question: why do you want it to be true that white people are smarter than black people?



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08 Feb 2012, 9:41 pm

Codarac,
Since you state that atheists believe in racial equality, I think you should be aware that at least a form of racial equality is also Christian since Gal 3:28 states "there is neither Jew nor Greek"
As to the portion of racial differences in tested intelligence which are genetic vs. environmental, I hope that you will look at statistics of Burakumin in the US. In Japan, this ethnic group is regarded as inferior and tests with IQs of about 15 points below other Japanese. In the US, Americans do not differentiate Burakumins from other Japanese, and descendants ofBurakumins who immigrated to the US test the same as other Japanese-Americans. This leads one to believe that environment has a major effect on tested IQ.
Ultimately, the only part of this that matters is how it influences our behavior. I think that it is good ethics to treat all people with equal respect, regardless of race, social class, education, etc. I also believe that a society which gives equal opportunity regardless of race is a better and, ultimately, a more prosperous society. I am not a communist, however, so while I believe in equal opportunity, I do not believe that society should guarantee equal outcome.



Last edited by ProfessorP on 08 Feb 2012, 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.