Free-will and Atheism

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Lord_Gareth
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22 Feb 2012, 11:54 am

01001011 wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Nothing productive came out of that thread anyway. The best one can do to make a case for morality being nonsense is play a deconstructive semantics game to make words meaningless. If I felt that was an intellectually honest approach, I could win every single argument in PPR. Better yet, I could ace all my college English comp classes by using random essay generators. There's no winning an argument against that level of (im)maturity.

So much for the so called theology or thestic morality. Just come up with some nonsense and if your opponent doubt whether the subject makes sense, accuse him of word game or intellectual dishonesty or immaturity.

Quote:

I've had two toddlers of my own, so I know how this game is played. The only conclusive statement you can make in that kind of situation is "Sit down. Shut up. Eat your peas." Once you get into an argument with a small child, you've already lost.

What is ironic is that 'morality' comes down to no more that these - opinons and commands - not rational arguments.

...You do know you're sinking below the level of the common denominator here, right? I've already postulated a system of morality with a clearly defined set of rational imperatives (an admittedly flawed one influenced by generations of thinkers before me). Many others have done the same, from Kant to Rand, with varying degrees of success/horror. Obviously morality as a concept is not unreasonable.

AngelRho
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22 Feb 2012, 12:04 pm

01001011 wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

If words don't have meaning, there's no point in discussing it anyway. If you're really not that interested, why bother? You come off as nothing more honest than troll. If you're not trolling, then honestly, I'm puzzled as to why you'd persist in wasting your own time. I chose not to make any more responses out of deference to a simple internet forum axiom:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK269WcHMpM[/youtube]

simon_says
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22 Feb 2012, 12:51 pm

Does anyone really believe that the bible (or other holy books) were required to teach a parent concern for their children? In some ways that's the root of empathy. The smallest unit of morality. When they talk about sociopaths, what's the trait that is frequently mentioned? Lack of empathy.

Human civilization has been teaching itself to expand that empathy out to larger groups. Children ---> kin ----> tribe ----> faith group ----> nation ---> world civilization ---> life. That aids the survival of a social animal but obviously we arent very good at it yet and some are better at it than others.

Look at the changing morality of the age of consent. It's changed and will likely change again. It's not even the same from state to state. It's a moral calculation based on empathy for children versus the needs of the tribe, faith or state versus our current lifepans. As lifespans increase, it may increase as well. There may even come a day when it's considered amoral to send an 18 year old to war.

Oodain
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22 Feb 2012, 1:19 pm

simon_says wrote:

if anything the age of consent for sex will fall.

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Thom_Fuleri
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22 Feb 2012, 1:20 pm

cw10 wrote:

Perhaps I can dumb this down a lot for you.

My view: Religion, a little flawed. Atheism, a little flawed.
Your view: Religion completely flawed. Atheism, not flawed at all.

Does this sound about right?

I think I see the problem here. Actually, there are two problems.

First, you're equating atheism to religion. This is typical binary thinking - "if you're not x, you're y". There isn't an atheist church, any more than there's a fan club for people who don't like Justin Bieber - though you may still get loose collectives in both cases. The nearest there is to an atheist "religious" movement is probably secular humanism, and it isn't compulsory to join. Even then, humanism is even less one religion than Christianity - which features baptists, methodists, catholics, protestants, lutherians, pentecostals and the occasional street preacher who thinks God is a sock - and its "members" have a wide range of beliefs and ideas and concepts. The only single factor atheists have in common is a lack of belief in God, and even that comes in different strengths.

So when you say "atheism is flawed" (or not flawed!), you're speaking gibberish. Atheism has nothing to be flawed.

The second problem is due to your religious bias - you're assuming that religion gets morality from somewhere else. It doesn't. Religious morality comes from the same source as secular morality - the people that think it up. God doesn't provide morality just for his believers - either everyone is divinely led, or no-one is.

shrox
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22 Feb 2012, 1:27 pm

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Atheism could be flawed. It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist. Of course, I say it is flawed, at least one deity exists.

KRipley
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22 Feb 2012, 1:29 pm

shrox wrote:

Atheism could be flawed. It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist. Of course, I say it is flawed, at least one deity exists.

Please, sir. Chuck Norris is deeply offended that you've equated him with something as small and powerless as a deity.

EDIT: Crap, used my wife's account on accident. This is Lord_Gareth; I'll try to keep this to a minimum in the future.

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22 Feb 2012, 1:34 pm

KRipley wrote:

shrox wrote:

Atheism could be flawed. It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist. Of course, I say it is flawed, at least one deity exists.

Tiny little salmonella and her friend botulism can bring ol' Chucky down...

And Mr. Norris doesn't get offended very easily...he's no Ted Nugent.

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22 Feb 2012, 2:05 pm

I do think we can all agree on this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD1KqbDdmuE[/youtube]

Vigilans
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22 Feb 2012, 2:18 pm

cw10 wrote:

That's maybe an ultimate outcome? But that's a very limited and unknowledgeable view. There are outlines and examples for just about every circumstance and they all don't lead to the pearly gates or hells own kitchen. It can be a social circumstance where people just won't have anything to do with you. You set yourself up depending on attitude. With a changeable and mutable moral code what is considered normal at some point can actually be harmful.

We're talking about ultimate outcomes, the afterlife, which is what your framework for accountability ultimately amounts to. According to your worldview, there are only two end results, heaven or hell. Bliss or damnation. You can evade that as much as you want, but it is the cornerstone of your religion. They don't call Jesus a "savior" for no reason, or tell people their souls need to be saved just because they feel like it

You assume a lot about my morals. Especially since you have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of atheism. You are basically talking out of your ass. Once again I ask you to please provide for us where having a religious framework has prevented people from being immoral. It certainly didn't stop your religion's priests from molesting children. Unless you neglect the entirety of human history through Christian revisionism, your response will either be empty of examples, or more likely, full of more obfuscating

Thom_Fuleri wrote:

cw10 bases his views on apocalyptic right wing media blogs, so don't expect this to register with him

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22 Feb 2012, 3:23 pm

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

You're already coming from an incorrect angle. I'm not Christian, so any preconceived notions you had about me you can toss out the window. I can see now why you're having such a well thought out and difficult war with me, you don't like Christians. All of your posts have a negative bias towards Christianity. Hell (damnation) is a Greek concept and was only adopted in later versions of the bible. You either face god or you don't, it's your choice. Being alone kinda sucks though.

Declension
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22 Feb 2012, 3:30 pm

shrox wrote:

It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist.

Um... priors don't work like that.

You're making it look like there are two options, and thus assigning a prior of 1/2.

But what if we put it like this? Either a deity exists, or a deity used to exist but doesn't anymore, or a deity never existed. Now the chance of a deity existing is 1/3!

Do you see the problem with thinking in this way?

AngelRho
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22 Feb 2012, 3:37 pm

KRipley wrote:

shrox wrote:

Atheism could be flawed. It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist. Of course, I say it is flawed, at least one deity exists.

Um...you do realize that Chuck Norris is a known Christian theist, right? Or was that your whole point?

FTR, I agree Chuck would be offended by the comparison--I just disagree with the reasoning.

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22 Feb 2012, 3:40 pm

cw10 wrote:

You're already coming from an incorrect angle. I'm not Christian, so any preconceived notions you had about me you can toss out the window.

My notions of you are based on our interactions. You have argued in the manner of a fundamentalist, so I'm going to treat you as such. If you are not one, at least outline your views so I do not mistake you

cw10 wrote:

I can see now why you're having such a well thought out and difficult war with me, you don't like Christians.

Most people I know are Christians, so... wrong. I don't dislike Christians, I dislike your assertion that theism is required to live a moral life. You have insulted me on numerous occasions with both direct words and inferences about my morality (which you actually know nothing about). I do not consider the supernatural relevant or meaningful. People can believe what they want, I could care less, so long as it isn't interfering with others lives.

cw10 wrote:

All of your posts have a negative bias towards Christianity. Hell (damnation) is a Greek concept and was only adopted in later versions of the bible. You either face god or you don't, it's your choice. Being alone kinda sucks though.

All I have been doing is defending my morals and trying to get you to back up your claims. You still have yet to do this. In an effort to further evade answering you are now accusing me of what, hating Christians? Make up your mind about what your "moral framework" is. You keep talking about accountability then denying it has anything to do with heaven and hell. Why can't you theists, or whatever you are, just stop flip flopping and answer my damn questions already

Its amusing to me that you accuse me of intolerance and negative bias when most of your posts about atheism are steaming piles of bigoted s**t

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22 Feb 2012, 3:49 pm

cw10 wrote:

Hell (damnation) is a Greek concept and was only adopted in later versions of the bible. You either face god or you don't, it's your choice. Being alone kinda sucks though.

Please explain.

And it's not that I necessarily disagree. The Bible is full of imagery of what separation from God is "like" but doesn't outright give it a name. "Sheol" and "Hades" are very similar but don't necessarily denote a place of eternal torment. If Hades is understood as Tartarus, then that would be different. Otherwise, Sheol and Hades are just generic terms for the underworld. The earlier Christians substituted Hades for Sheol because the concepts are so similar.

Gehenna is another depiction of hell is like, and in modern translations the word Gehenna is translated as "hell." The HSCB translation doesn't really use the word "hell" or "hellfire" all that much, but does make some use of it for the sake of simplicity. There has been increased interest as of late for trying to render translations as close to the original wording and meaning as possible, so I wouldn't be surprised if in the next century or so if the word "hell" became extinct entirely from Bible translations.

Thom_Fuleri
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22 Feb 2012, 5:52 pm

shrox wrote:

Atheism could be flawed. It's a 50/50 chance, either at least one deity exists, or no deities exist.

50/50? No. They aren't equal probabilities.

Quote:

Of course, I say it is flawed, at least one deity exists.

True, but worshipping myself might be considered arrogant.

Last edited by Thom_Fuleri on 22 Feb 2012, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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