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AspieOtaku
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10 Nov 2013, 3:07 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCTbRAubPsA[/youtube]


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AspieOtaku
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10 Nov 2013, 4:09 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc[/youtube]


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wreck1
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10 Nov 2013, 4:44 pm

I belive i Allah. And I believe in TAO too, and buddhism is my philosophy.
I believe that the world without divine intervention is lost. We are intinctually driven towards arrogance and chaos.
But God makes order. And TAO teaches that humans must take the lowest places.

And there is a common story about bowing to adam (humans). The Buddhists bow to eacother.

It is probably all a lie. But the fantasy of God is like reading a good book or watching a good movie, requires only some activity of some form. And it is worth it. The alternative seeking and living on external motivation only is not good, we destroy earth. Religion gives you internal motivation. Less poverty and that is not the same as more personal positivity.



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10 Nov 2013, 8:02 pm

There's a lot of angry people on both sides of the issue; and, believe me, some of us theists are angry with other theists for turning their faith into a set of rules that would put any money-making, exclusionary, ritualistic country-club out of business. Yet, because they are protected religious institutions, they can get away with saying thing like "Deport Atheists!", "Cure Homosexuality!", "The only real Christian is a giving Christian (so give all you have)!", and "Don't come to church with nothing to offer!"

Some of us just want to enjoy life, the universe, and everything and help others wherever and whenever we can. Anyone can do these things, and it doesn't take belief in an improvable concept to make it happen.


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Moviefan2k4
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10 Nov 2013, 9:59 pm

Fnord wrote:
Lots of us do, even though faith proves nothing.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen." ~Hebrews 11:1~

Quote:
But did you ever notice that you can re-arrange the letters of "Santa" to form the word "Satan"?
I didn't realize that until my uncle told me the joke about the dyslexic devil worshipper; I laughed my head off. :)


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AspieOtaku
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11 Nov 2013, 10:22 am

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wreck1
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11 Nov 2013, 12:08 pm

AspieOtaku.
Regarding your post.
...
You know the hindu chakra system?
There you have a top and a bottom.
All is equally important. But as you evolve and progress.
The top become more important.
So is your mind in your brain, or in your dick?

If it is in your dick, then you live a life or fight and flight.
And that is much what religion is about. To guide us away from or primitive instincts.
But if you want to enjoy your instincts and tell other to do that, then you are asking other to join you in your way to hell.
Think Karma.

People think it is bad being a hypocrite. That you follow your dick instead of your brain.
But I consider it like being sick, it is healthy to be sick because it leads to perfection.
And independence of your lower brain, your dick.



Fnord
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11 Nov 2013, 2:03 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Lots of us do, even though faith proves nothing.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen." ~Hebrews 11:1~

... so says a collection of largely apocryphal stories that were written decades - or even centuries - after the alleged acts that they describe.

If you want to believe that a book that was written to justify slavery, the subjugation of women, and conquest by genocide has any validity, then go right ahead.


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Moviefan2k4
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11 Nov 2013, 6:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Lots of us do, even though faith proves nothing.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen." ~Hebrews 11:1~

... so says a collection of largely apocryphal stories that were written decades - or even centuries - after the alleged acts that they describe.
Decades maybe, but certainly less than 100 years. Its highly likely that most of the New Testament was completed by 70 AD, because there's no mention of Solomon's Temple or the Jewish exile. It would be like reading a book on New York history, but there's no mention of 9/11...which points directly to the author writing it before the event.

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If you want to believe that a book that was written to justify slavery, the subjugation of women, and conquest by genocide has any validity, then go right ahead.
All of those things are described in Scripture, but none are justified by God. Jesus cared more about women and children than His own apostles did, and its not wrong for the Creator of all life to take it back at His own discretion. We're commanded to avoid it because we're not the author of life; He is.


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Bezeone
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11 Nov 2013, 8:15 pm

Well, I guess I would be one of those crazy Christians. So what can I do for you?



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11 Nov 2013, 9:16 pm

God is ineffable, beyond words. Can something that cannot be defined be said to exist? Lets let X represent something undefinable. If I say, "X exists" have I said anything meaningful?
Ultimately reality is meaningless. We have 2 options to explain why there is something rather than nothing. 1. Causes are an infinite chain. The reason there are humans is because the correct chemicals existed on earth. The reason the chemicals were formed was because of the elements (except hydrogen) being formed in stars...ad infinitum. 2. The chain is not infinite. In the case of 2 there is no ultimate explanation. In the case of 1, there is no explanation. Suppose we explain that the earth rests on an elephant and that elephant on an elephant...ad infinitum. That does not explain why they are elephants and not lets say rocks.
When I realized that the principle of sufficient reason does not apply to why there is something not nothing, it was an experience weirder than any Twilight Zone episode. To realize that it is not because we are too stupid to understand why there is something rather than nothing, but because there is no explanation, makes reality stranger (and perhaps more exciting,depends on your personality type) than any metaphysical explanation.


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Moviefan2k4
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12 Nov 2013, 12:22 am

wittgenstein wrote:
Ultimately reality is meaningless.
What do you mean by that?


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wittgenstein
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12 Nov 2013, 7:15 am

Meaning is a different concept than purpose. Meaning is dependent on language. For example, we may ask, "what is the meaning of the word "dog". We are looking for a definition. If we ask what the purpose of a dog is,we are asking a different question.
Definitions produce an infinite regress. What is a tooth pic, wood. What is wood? Cellulose fibers.What are cellulose fibers...
Words are the union of signifier and signified. The signified is an actual dog,for example. The signifier "dog" is the pattern of ink or the sound produced when saying "dog". Without consciousness being involved "1+1=2" is only a signifier* and has no meaning.
An actual rock does not symbolize or represent anything. Therefore it is meaningless.This explains my current interest in Zen. As Bly said Zen is the unsymbolization of reality.This also explains my current interest in mysticism. Mysticism (tho it's current popular definition is)is not a metaphysical system. It is the perception of reality without the intermediary of words.This also explains my interest in Wittgenstein. He was once thought of as a logical positivist. He was not! As Bertrand Russel said he is a mystic!

* Technically without a signified it would not even be a signifier. It would only be a pattern of ink.


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My debate style is calm and deadly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-230v_ecAcM


jagatai
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12 Nov 2013, 1:26 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
All of those things are described in Scripture, but none are justified by God. Jesus cared more about women and children than His own apostles did, and its not wrong for the Creator of all life to take it back at His own discretion. We're commanded to avoid it because we're not the author of life; He is.


It's funny how the bible commands people to do things that seem to be conveniently advantageous to their own self interests. It's the same thing as modern Israelis claiming they can take Palestine for themselves because god said it was ok. The "creator's" commandments are nothing more than a story told to justify an assortment of crimes such as taking land, enslaving people, raping women and killing everyone else.

I would think the obviousness with which god commands people to do stuff that benefits them would make most people suspicious that perhaps god was just a "get out of jail free" card. The shifting attitudes of god more likely display the shifts of who currently has power. Claiming god has the right to change his mind is an absurdly desperate attempt to sidestep the obvious fact that "god's commandments" are nothing more than humans constructing a story that justifies their own crimes.


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michaudw
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29 Nov 2013, 11:56 pm

michaelhart22 wrote:
Who actually belives that crap? really though. some magical being in the sky you pray to for good things to happen to other people. like a genie or some sh--. seriosuly if you beilive in god then you must beilive in santa to.


I don't know of anybody who believes God is some "magical being in the sky." Christians believe He is everywhere present. Christians also believe that He created everything and holds everything together. And a magical genie who just grants good things to us when we ask is certainly not the God of the Bible. Christians realize that their lives should not be about themselves and what God can do for them. Instead, our lives should be about glorifying God and playing our part in His kingdom.



jagatai
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30 Nov 2013, 9:22 am

michaudw wrote:
michaelhart22 wrote:
Who actually belives that crap? really though. some magical being in the sky you pray to for good things to happen to other people. like a genie or some sh--. seriosuly if you beilive in god then you must beilive in santa to.


I don't know of anybody who believes God is some "magical being in the sky." Christians believe He is everywhere present. Christians also believe that He created everything and holds everything together. And a magical genie who just grants good things to us when we ask is certainly not the God of the Bible. Christians realize that their lives should not be about themselves and what God can do for them. Instead, our lives should be about glorifying God and playing our part in His kingdom.

I believe the point michaelhart22 is making is that in order to believe in the Christian god, you have to accept the idea that a non-corporeal sentient being exists outside the physical structure of the universe and has the ability to construct a universe, control its variables and maintain a direct relationship with every human in existence. You also have to believe that each human has a "soul" that can exist outside the mind and that this soul eventually exists in a non-corporeal form in an eternal afterlife.

While perhaps there are more "polite" ways of asking the question, the question still remains. As there is NO evidence to support the claims of a god or an afterlife or the concept of sin (original or unoriginal) it seems entirely reasonable to point this out and to ask for a reasonable explanation of why a person might believe in a god. Those of us who wish to understand reality are looking for answers that make sense and lead us closer to a real understanding of how the universe works. Religions always start with an answer and demand that the facts be modified to fit. But if the truth is important to you, you don't get to modify the facts. You can't pick and choose which facts you want to believe. All you can do is get the facts and follow where they lead.

You can characterize Christian belief in a more poetic form, that god is the universe and that humans are simply meant to glorify his existence, but it doesn't change the fact that this more poetic description of god does nothing to provide any sort of reasonable explanation.


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