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How are Sex Change Operations Medically Ethical?

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beneficii
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08 Jul 2014, 12:42 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
A horse should not be forced to drink tainted water. The whole subject of this topic is about the morality of a doctor operating on the basis of a suicidal drive , which since it is suicidal is irrational drive.


I'd say, You would consider any source tainted if it considered sex reassignment surgery to be ethical, or necessary, if you would consider the Medicare coverage decision to be tainted.

You're not interested in having the question you asked in the OP answered. Instead, you want us to fall into lockstep behind you in a sort of faux outrage you're trying to stir up on this thread.

There's no way to answer your question to your satisfaction, because nothing will satisfy you. When I speak of intellectual dishonesty, I speak of this. You are "a man who cannot be turned."

That intellectual dishonesty is your problem, not mine.


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seaturtleisland
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08 Jul 2014, 12:44 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
The OP is clearly trolling. I shouldn't have even given my response. No answer will satisfy the original poster. He/She/Zhe just wants to argue. I think this thread should be locked.
Completely untrue. To lock this thread would be unjust because I have not instigated anger nor violated any policy. If you are angry do not blame me. Your feelings come from your own reason and thus can only be controlled by you.


I'm not angry at you. I'm just pointing out that this thread is going in circles because of your stubbornness. Your question has already been answered and yet you keep asking it over and over again. The only way this discussion will end is if everybody just agrees with you (or pretends to agree with you).



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08 Jul 2014, 12:53 pm

ZenDen wrote:
And yet we still allow adults in this country to decide whether to take life saving medicine or surgery. It's exactly like this. Your body, your choice.
The topic of this thread is about the ethics of the doctor not the patient themselves. What an individual chooses to do to their body is ultimately under their control. However, a doctor ( not being part of the patients body) is suppose to be bound by ethics and thus should not preform an operation to fulfill a suicidal urge of the patient.


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beneficii
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08 Jul 2014, 12:55 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
The OP is clearly trolling. I shouldn't have even given my response. No answer will satisfy the original poster. He/She/Zhe just wants to argue. I think this thread should be locked.
Completely untrue. To lock this thread would be unjust because I have not instigated anger nor violated any policy. If you are angry do not blame me. Your feelings come from your own reason and thus can only be controlled by you.


I'm not angry at you. I'm just pointing out that this thread is going in circles because of your stubbornness. Your question has already been answered and yet you keep asking it over and over again. The only way this discussion will end is if everybody just agrees with you (or pretends to agree with you).


Let's pretend to agree. All together now! 1, 2, and 3,...

...


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Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:07 pm

starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Precisely my point. It is unethical because the surgery is designed to appease the suicidal destructive behavior rather that actually treat the suicidal destructive behavior in itself.


The doctors are not performing sex reassignment because of "irrational suicidal behavior" or "appease suicidal destructive behavior".

As this Stanford biology professor explains, humans may have physical characteristics in the brain that match the opposite gender. This is the nature of transsexuals. As the professor states, transsexuals feel like "I got the wrong body".

Essentially, transsexuals are intersexed

the doctor is not performing a procedure to "appease a suicidal behavior"--he is performing a procedure to correct a condition (that the basis in the brain of one's sense of one's own gender does not match the genitals one possesses--easier to surgically fix the genitals than the brain because there is no one single locus of structure in the brain for gender identity, and the research supports that you can't "fix" gender identity with a pill or therapy) that is leading to/can lead to severe depression and suicidal feelings. sex-reassignment surgery is effective in ultimately improving the quality of life of the patient. pills and therapy to "fix" their gender identity just doesn't work, but SRS surgery can actually help to alleviate suffering. alleviating suffering is the purpose, moral and practical, of the practice of medicine.

If it is a suicidal urge then it can be considered for all intents an purposes to be irrational. Whether the person has the wrong brain does not enter into the question of how a doctor can ethically operate. If ( as has already been stated by others ) the purpose for the opperation is to appease a suicidal urge, then by default it is irrational and presumably unethical


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Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:12 pm

beneficii wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
A horse should not be forced to drink tainted water. The whole subject of this topic is about the morality of a doctor operating on the basis of a suicidal drive , which since it is suicidal is irrational drive.


I'd say, You would consider any source tainted if it considered sex reassignment surgery to be ethical, or necessary, if you would consider the Medicare coverage decision to be tainted.

You're not interested in having the question you asked in the OP answered. Instead, you want us to fall into lockstep behind you in a sort of faux outrage you're trying to stir up on this thread.

There's no way to answer your question to your satisfaction, because nothing will satisfy you. When I speak of intellectual dishonesty, I speak of this. You are "a man who cannot be turned."

That intellectual dishonesty is your problem, not mine.
Why should I be interested in how doctors view their ethics. They would consider (as they have done in the past ) their actions to be ethical by default. What I am asking is why do you the people on this forum consider it ethical without appealing to an authority to tell you that it is so.


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Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:14 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
The OP is clearly trolling. I shouldn't have even given my response. No answer will satisfy the original poster. He/She/Zhe just wants to argue. I think this thread should be locked.
Completely untrue. To lock this thread would be unjust because I have not instigated anger nor violated any policy. If you are angry do not blame me. Your feelings come from your own reason and thus can only be controlled by you.


I'm not angry at you. I'm just pointing out that this thread is going in circles because of your stubbornness. Your question has already been answered and yet you keep asking it over and over again. The only way this discussion will end is if everybody just agrees with you (or pretends to agree with you).
No, it ends when you rationally explain your own thought processes without having to appeal to authority or by covering your reason with emotion rather than logic.


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08 Jul 2014, 1:18 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Precisely my point. It is unethical because the surgery is designed to appease the suicidal destructive behavior rather that actually treat the suicidal destructive behavior in itself.


The doctors are not performing sex reassignment because of "irrational suicidal behavior" or "appease suicidal destructive behavior".

As this Stanford biology professor explains, humans may have physical characteristics in the brain that match the opposite gender. This is the nature of transsexuals. As the professor states, transsexuals feel like "I got the wrong body".

Essentially, transsexuals are intersexed

the doctor is not performing a procedure to "appease a suicidal behavior"--he is performing a procedure to correct a condition (that the basis in the brain of one's sense of one's own gender does not match the genitals one possesses--easier to surgically fix the genitals than the brain because there is no one single locus of structure in the brain for gender identity, and the research supports that you can't "fix" gender identity with a pill or therapy) that is leading to/can lead to severe depression and suicidal feelings. sex-reassignment surgery is effective in ultimately improving the quality of life of the patient. pills and therapy to "fix" their gender identity just doesn't work, but SRS surgery can actually help to alleviate suffering. alleviating suffering is the purpose, moral and practical, of the practice of medicine.

If it is a suicidal urge then it can be considered for all intents an purposes to be irrational. Whether the person has the wrong brain does not enter into the question of how a doctor can ethically operate. If ( as has already been stated by others ) the purpose for the opperation is to appease a suicidal urge, then by default it is irrational and presumably unethical


the suicidal urge is not what is causing them to have the surgery--they have a condition that can eventually cause them to get suicidal if it is not corrected by surgery. if pills and therapy don't help assuage the suffering of having your body not match your brain enough to prevent thoughts of suicide (and research supports this), but surgery can help prevent that, then why wouldn't surgery be an ethical option? if you don't fix the person surgically and they are shown by research to be more likely to attempt or commit suicide, and research also supports that they are more likely to experience better quality of life if they DO receive sex-reassignment surgery, then is surgery not the MORE ethical choice in the eyes of the doctors, if it is more likely to alleviate the suffering of their patient? if you're not willing to learn about the neurological research behind these issues then it is intellectually dishonest to insist on a continued argument in which you repeat your ignorance indefinitely.



Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:20 pm

beneficii wrote:
Let's pretend to agree. All together now! 1, 2, and 3,...

...
I don't want that. I want you to exercise your human reason to arrive at your own truth without having to be told what to think. how you should feel, or what is the expedient thing to say. Arrive at the answer laid bare of emotion and tell me your truth.


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Raptor
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08 Jul 2014, 1:25 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Raptor wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
The OP is clearly trolling. I shouldn't have even given my response. No answer will satisfy the original poster. He/She/Zhe just wants to argue. I think this thread should be locked.

Ah, yes; "I don't like it so it's trolling". Using that logic most of the threads in this forum could be categorised as trolling by someone. And if you do reply to a thread that you believe is trollish then you are guilty of perpetuating that thread and feeding trolls.


I am guilty of feeding the troll. I mentioned that already

And it's not just about me not liking it. The thread is going in circles. Sherlock makes argument A. People explain what's wrong with it. Sherlock makes argument B. People explain what's wrong with it. Sherlock makes argument C and then when the fault in it is pointed out zhe makes argument A again even though it's already been discussed.

More like someone isn't buying the rationale provided so they must be trolling. We've been treated to a torrent of trans/SRS threads by beneficii and now someone has intercepted the ball and is running with it. Deal with it already.... :roll:


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Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:28 pm

starvingartist wrote:

the suicidal urge is not what is causing them to have the surgery--they have a condition that can eventually cause them to get suicidal if it is not corrected by surgery. if pills and therapy don't help assuage the suffering of having your body not match your brain enough to prevent thoughts of suicide (and research supports this), but surgery can help prevent that, then why wouldn't surgery be an ethical option? if you don't fix the person surgically and they are shown by research to be more likely to attempt or commit suicide, and research also supports that they are more likely to experience better quality of life if they DO receive sex-reassignment surgery, then is surgery not the MORE ethical choice in the eyes of the doctors, if it is more likely to alleviate the suffering of their patient? if you're not willing to learn about the neurological research behind these issues then it is intellectually dishonest to insist on a continued argument in which you repeat your ignorance indefinitely.
Now you are just being overtly rude. As I have stated before I am interested in why you think it is ethical without having your answer dictated to by medical officials, who in the past have found it ethical to use forced sterilizations and even eradication's.


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Last edited by Sherlock03 on 08 Jul 2014, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sherlock03
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08 Jul 2014, 1:33 pm

Raptor wrote:
More like someone isn't buying the rationale provided so they must be trolling. We've been treated to a torrent of trans/SRS threads by beneficii and now someone has intercepted the ball and is running with it. Deal with it already.... :roll:
If anyone thinks I am trolling it is their own affair. I have no will to give my time nor my inclination to correct such fallacies of thought.


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Last edited by Sherlock03 on 08 Jul 2014, 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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08 Jul 2014, 1:47 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Precisely my point. It is unethical because the surgery is designed to appease the suicidal destructive behavior rather that actually treat the suicidal destructive behavior in itself.


The doctors are not performing sex reassignment because of "irrational suicidal behavior" or "appease suicidal destructive behavior".

As this Stanford biology professor explains, humans may have physical characteristics in the brain that match the opposite gender. This is the nature of transsexuals. As the professor states, transsexuals feel like "I got the wrong body".

Essentially, transsexuals are intersexed

the doctor is not performing a procedure to "appease a suicidal behavior"--he is performing a procedure to correct a condition (that the basis in the brain of one's sense of one's own gender does not match the genitals one possesses--easier to surgically fix the genitals than the brain because there is no one single locus of structure in the brain for gender identity, and the research supports that you can't "fix" gender identity with a pill or therapy) that is leading to/can lead to severe depression and suicidal feelings. sex-reassignment surgery is effective in ultimately improving the quality of life of the patient. pills and therapy to "fix" their gender identity just doesn't work, but SRS surgery can actually help to alleviate suffering. alleviating suffering is the purpose, moral and practical, of the practice of medicine.

If it is a suicidal urge then it can be considered for all intents an purposes to be irrational. Whether the person has the wrong brain does not enter into the question of how a doctor can ethically operate. If ( as has already been stated by others ) the purpose for the opperation is to appease a suicidal urge, then by default it is irrational and presumably unethical


the suicidal urge is not what is causing them to have the surgery--they have a condition that can eventually cause them to get suicidal if it is not corrected by surgery. if pills and therapy don't help assuage the suffering of having your body not match your brain enough to prevent thoughts of suicide (and research supports this), but surgery can help prevent that, then why wouldn't surgery be an ethical option? if you don't fix the person surgically and they are shown by research to be more likely to attempt or commit suicide, and research also supports that they are more likely to experience better quality of life if they DO receive sex-reassignment surgery, then is surgery not the MORE ethical choice in the eyes of the doctors, if it is more likely to alleviate the suffering of their patient? if you're not willing to learn about the neurological research behind these issues then it is intellectually dishonest to insist on a continued argument in which you repeat your ignorance indefinitely.
Now you are just being overtly rude. As I have stated before I am interested in why you think it is ethical without having your answer dictated to by medical officials, who in the past have found it ethical to use forced sterilizations and even eradication's.


So you're admitting to trolling?

you're asking a medical question, but refuse to consider medical answers to the question.

So.why are you asking the question?

The only possible reason is to troll.

So this response can only be taken as admission that you're trolling.



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08 Jul 2014, 2:42 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

So you're admitting to trolling?

you're asking a medical question, but refuse to consider medical answers to the question.

So.why are you asking the question?

The only possible reason is to troll.

So this response can only be taken as admission that you're trolling.
Untrue, this is after all a debate and it must follow logic. Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. Therefore, my original question has not, as of yet, been answered.


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Last edited by Sherlock03 on 08 Jul 2014, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

seaturtleisland
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08 Jul 2014, 3:01 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Precisely my point. It is unethical because the surgery is designed to appease the suicidal destructive behavior rather that actually treat the suicidal destructive behavior in itself.


The doctors are not performing sex reassignment because of "irrational suicidal behavior" or "appease suicidal destructive behavior".

As this Stanford biology professor explains, humans may have physical characteristics in the brain that match the opposite gender. This is the nature of transsexuals. As the professor states, transsexuals feel like "I got the wrong body".

Essentially, transsexuals are intersexed

the doctor is not performing a procedure to "appease a suicidal behavior"--he is performing a procedure to correct a condition (that the basis in the brain of one's sense of one's own gender does not match the genitals one possesses--easier to surgically fix the genitals than the brain because there is no one single locus of structure in the brain for gender identity, and the research supports that you can't "fix" gender identity with a pill or therapy) that is leading to/can lead to severe depression and suicidal feelings. sex-reassignment surgery is effective in ultimately improving the quality of life of the patient. pills and therapy to "fix" their gender identity just doesn't work, but SRS surgery can actually help to alleviate suffering. alleviating suffering is the purpose, moral and practical, of the practice of medicine.

If it is a suicidal urge then it can be considered for all intents an purposes to be irrational. Whether the person has the wrong brain does not enter into the question of how a doctor can ethically operate. If ( as has already been stated by others ) the purpose for the opperation is to appease a suicidal urge, then by default it is irrational and presumably unethical


the suicidal urge is not what is causing them to have the surgery--they have a condition that can eventually cause them to get suicidal if it is not corrected by surgery. if pills and therapy don't help assuage the suffering of having your body not match your brain enough to prevent thoughts of suicide (and research supports this), but surgery can help prevent that, then why wouldn't surgery be an ethical option? if you don't fix the person surgically and they are shown by research to be more likely to attempt or commit suicide, and research also supports that they are more likely to experience better quality of life if they DO receive sex-reassignment surgery, then is surgery not the MORE ethical choice in the eyes of the doctors, if it is more likely to alleviate the suffering of their patient? if you're not willing to learn about the neurological research behind these issues then it is intellectually dishonest to insist on a continued argument in which you repeat your ignorance indefinitely.
Now you are just being overtly rude. As I have stated before I am interested in why you think it is ethical without having your answer dictated to by medical officials, who in the past have found it ethical to use forced sterilizations and even eradication's.


So you're admitting to trolling?

you're asking a medical question, but refuse to consider medical answers to the question.

So.why are you asking the question?

The only possible reason is to troll.

So this response can only be taken as admission that you're trolling.
Untrue, this is after all a debate and it must follow logic. Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. Therefore, my original question has not, as of yet, been answered.


How is it logical to claim that trans people aren't mentally capable of deciding what is right for them and their bodies? Where does that come from?



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08 Jul 2014, 3:05 pm

^ You've broken the quotes tree people. I suggest you just quote the previous poster not the entire tree to fix the mess.


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