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The genius of Charles Darwin

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Jono
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08 May 2012, 8:43 pm

Yet another documentary. I have found this to be a very interesting documentary. As an evolutionary biologist, Richard Dawkins is in his niche with this one as he discusses and showcases the evidence for evolution and later on debates creationists.

This one comes in three parts. In the first part, entitled "Life, Darwin and Everything", Richard Dawkins showcases the evidence for evolution, discusses the life of Charles Darwin and how he came up the ideas he did, and takes a group of high school students on a field trip to show them some evidence of evolution, since of them apparently believe in creationism. In the second part entitled "The Fifth Ape", he discusses the philosophical and social ramifications of the theory of evolution. He also discusses how our moral and ethical values could actually of evolved as product of evolution as a form altruism for the purposes of social cohesion, the same way that a type of "herd mentality" has evolved in other social animals. Society itself does not need to be organised on Darwinian principles and shouldn't be, contrary to what many creationists complain about being the "consequences" of believing in evolution (though this is also invoking the fallacy of appealing to consequences). The third part, entitled "God Strikes Back", is all about the fundamentalist religious backlash against evolution and how certain people are trying to get creationism taught in the science classroom.

Here's part 1, "Life, Darwin and Everything":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8AtRvBmnUQ&list=PL8553576D888A558B&index=1&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]

Part 2, entitled "The Fifth Ape" is here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IanbEXMzmBo&list=PL8553576D888A558B&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]

The final part of the documentary, called "God Strikes Back" follows:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbGViN1t9w&feature=bf_next&list=PL8553576D888A558B[/youtube]

Tell me what you think



abacacus
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08 May 2012, 8:49 pm

Watching now. I have the utmost respect for Dawkins, wonderful man from everything I've seen.


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09 May 2012, 3:11 am

Thanks for the link. I look forward to seeing all 3 parts. I will let you know my thoughts. I don't remember the specifics, but a poll was taken a while ago (I think among scientists) of the most significant contribution to science, and Darwin's work was voted to be first, even above Einstein's Theory of Relativity, for example.



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09 May 2012, 12:32 pm

Richard Dawkins is almost having an orgasm in this one. Look at his face when he holds up the finch with "Darwins original label"

It is a good documentary and he explains natural selection very well, so well that even a complete idiot could not get away with not understanding.

I love the bit where it is night in Africa and he talks about "animals running for their lives...."



Rocky
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11 May 2012, 4:15 am

I found the second segment especially thought provoking. We humans are proud for creating societies which have a social safety net for those who might otherwise lack the ability to survive otherwise. We are proud that the dog eat dog reality of the jungle has been replaced with being relatively peaceful. We still have wars of conquest, but that is the exception instead of the rule.

But I wonder how much of our progress is due to the over abundance that modern technologies have provided. We, the fifth ape, have come a long way from earlier times, when one nation state would conquer the other to take their resources and enslave the survivors. But are we as advanced in this way, as the Bonobos? They have no wars, no predation on other creatures, and no violence within themselves. I understand that their environment does provide them with an abundance of food, but they do not enjoy the abundance that we do. They live the slogan from the 60's: "Make love, not war."

We, the fifth ape, currently seem to be somewhere between the Bonobos and the Chimpanzees in terms of aggressiveness. Sorry if this seems a bit off the topic, since Dawkins didn't address this question directly. I saw nothing to dispute about what he did cover. I was already familiar with most of what he covered from reading "The God Delusion" and watching his YouTube videos. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed watching all three parts, and recommend watching, if you haven't yet.



Jono
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11 May 2012, 8:55 am

Robdemanc wrote:
Richard Dawkins is almost having an orgasm in this one. Look at his face when he holds up the finch with "Darwins original label"

It is a good documentary and he explains natural selection very well, so well that even a complete idiot could not get away with not understanding.

I love the bit where it is night in Africa and he talks about "animals running for their lives...."


Well, it is his field. I'm not surprised that Richard Dawkins is passionate about this topic.I agree that he explains natural selection quite well.



Jono
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11 May 2012, 9:05 am

Rocky wrote:
I found the second segment especially thought provoking. We humans are proud for creating societies which have a social safety net for those who might otherwise lack the ability to survive otherwise. We are proud that the dog eat dog reality of the jungle has been replaced with being relatively peaceful. We still have wars of conquest, but that is the exception instead of the rule.

But I wonder how much of our progress is due to the over abundance that modern technologies have provided. We, the fifth ape, have come a long way from earlier times, when one nation state would conquer the other to take their resources and enslave the survivors. But are we as advanced in this way, as the Bonobos? They have no wars, no predation on other creatures, and no violence within themselves. I understand that their environment does provide them with an abundance of food, but they do not enjoy the abundance that we do. They live the slogan from the 60's: "Make love, not war."

We, the fifth ape, currently seem to be somewhere between the Bonobos and the Chimpanzees in terms of aggressiveness. Sorry if this seems a bit off the topic, since Dawkins didn't address this question directly. I saw nothing to dispute about what he did cover. I was already familiar with most of what he covered from reading "The God Delusion" and watching his YouTube videos. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed watching all three parts, and recommend watching, if you haven't yet.


I think Steven Pinker has done some research on this topic. Richard Dawkins did interview him in that video but didn't go into much detail about that particular topic. Apparently, we seem to have been getting progressively less aggressive since the beginning of civilization for some reason. However, we have always had a sense of morality arising out of altruism. You may want to look up the so-called "prisoner's dilemma" which I think illustrates how altruism could lead to best survival when living in a group and it also illustrates how and why it would of evolved.



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11 May 2012, 10:50 am

Rocky wrote:
Thanks for the link. I look forward to seeing all 3 parts. I will let you know my thoughts. I don't remember the specifics, but a poll was taken a while ago (I think among scientists) of the most significant contribution to science, and Darwin's work was voted to be first, even above Einstein's Theory of Relativity, for example.


I personally consider Darwin to be the greatest scientist of all time.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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11 May 2012, 12:56 pm

Dawkins' essay on the evolutionary origins of altruism is brilliant.

ruveyn



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11 May 2012, 2:45 pm

Jono wrote:
Rocky wrote:
I found the second segment especially thought provoking. We humans are proud for creating societies which have a social safety net for those who might otherwise lack the ability to survive otherwise. We are proud that the dog eat dog reality of the jungle has been replaced with being relatively peaceful. We still have wars of conquest, but that is the exception instead of the rule.

But I wonder how much of our progress is due to the over abundance that modern technologies have provided. We, the fifth ape, have come a long way from earlier times, when one nation state would conquer the other to take their resources and enslave the survivors. But are we as advanced in this way, as the Bonobos? They have no wars, no predation on other creatures, and no violence within themselves. I understand that their environment does provide them with an abundance of food, but they do not enjoy the abundance that we do. They live the slogan from the 60's: "Make love, not war."

We, the fifth ape, currently seem to be somewhere between the Bonobos and the Chimpanzees in terms of aggressiveness. Sorry if this seems a bit off the topic, since Dawkins didn't address this question directly. I saw nothing to dispute about what he did cover. I was already familiar with most of what he covered from reading "The God Delusion" and watching his YouTube videos. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed watching all three parts, and recommend watching, if you haven't yet.


I think Steven Pinker has done some research on this topic. Richard Dawkins did interview him in that video but didn't go into much detail about that particular topic. Apparently, we seem to have been getting progressively less aggressive since the beginning of civilization for some reason. However, we have always had a sense of morality arising out of altruism. You may want to look up the so-called "prisoner's dilemma" which I think illustrates how altruism could lead to best survival when living in a group and it also illustrates how and why it would of evolved.


Wild foxes in Siberia have been domesticated which not only resulted in a change from aggressiveness to gentleness, but actual physical changes. The breeders chose the more gentle of the foxes to breed, but the surprising part is the physical changes which made them appear more like dogs. They developed floppy ears, for example. They were not intentionally bred for those physical changes. Part of the change in behavior could be from being fed and cared for, rather than a predatory lifestyle required by living in the wild. These changes happened surprisingly quickly, though I don't remember the specifics.



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11 May 2012, 3:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Dawkins' essay on the evolutionary origins of altruism is brilliant.


I didn't read it in its entirety, but I agree, it was awesome.



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11 May 2012, 5:27 pm

Not available in my country(UK). Think that I have seen it before, but will keep looking for it.

He interviews Stephen Pinker? Does he interview any scientist that does not advocate his positions( creationism aside)? Think that Stephen Gould would have died by the time this was filmed, but there must be somebody.

Horizon produced a documentary, The Secret Life of Dogs, regarding the Silver Fox.

Ruveyn/ CaptainTrips, are you referring to 'The Selfish Gene'?


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Jono
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14 May 2012, 9:03 am

Rocky wrote:
Jono wrote:
Rocky wrote:
I found the second segment especially thought provoking. We humans are proud for creating societies which have a social safety net for those who might otherwise lack the ability to survive otherwise. We are proud that the dog eat dog reality of the jungle has been replaced with being relatively peaceful. We still have wars of conquest, but that is the exception instead of the rule.

But I wonder how much of our progress is due to the over abundance that modern technologies have provided. We, the fifth ape, have come a long way from earlier times, when one nation state would conquer the other to take their resources and enslave the survivors. But are we as advanced in this way, as the Bonobos? They have no wars, no predation on other creatures, and no violence within themselves. I understand that their environment does provide them with an abundance of food, but they do not enjoy the abundance that we do. They live the slogan from the 60's: "Make love, not war."

We, the fifth ape, currently seem to be somewhere between the Bonobos and the Chimpanzees in terms of aggressiveness. Sorry if this seems a bit off the topic, since Dawkins didn't address this question directly. I saw nothing to dispute about what he did cover. I was already familiar with most of what he covered from reading "The God Delusion" and watching his YouTube videos. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed watching all three parts, and recommend watching, if you haven't yet.


I think Steven Pinker has done some research on this topic. Richard Dawkins did interview him in that video but didn't go into much detail about that particular topic. Apparently, we seem to have been getting progressively less aggressive since the beginning of civilization for some reason. However, we have always had a sense of morality arising out of altruism. You may want to look up the so-called "prisoner's dilemma" which I think illustrates how altruism could lead to best survival when living in a group and it also illustrates how and why it would of evolved.


Wild foxes in Siberia have been domesticated which not only resulted in a change from aggressiveness to gentleness, but actual physical changes. The breeders chose the more gentle of the foxes to breed, but the surprising part is the physical changes which made them appear more like dogs. They developed floppy ears, for example. They were not intentionally bred for those physical changes. Part of the change in behavior could be from being fed and cared for, rather than a predatory lifestyle required by living in the wild. These changes happened surprisingly quickly, though I don't remember the specifics.


Apparently it was an experiment to test the theory of how wolves were originally domesticated, to become our common household dogs today. The changes in physical features are believed to be due to lower adrenaline production in the foxes.



Jono
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14 May 2012, 9:09 am

Orr wrote:
Not available in my country(UK). Think that I have seen it before, but will keep looking for it.

He interviews Stephen Pinker? Does he interview any scientist that does not advocate his positions( creationism aside)? Think that Stephen Gould would have died by the time this was filmed, but there must be somebody.

Horizon produced a documentary, The Secret Life of Dogs, regarding the Silver Fox.

Ruveyn/ CaptainTrips, are you referring to 'The Selfish Gene'?


In the documentary, Dawkins does interview a scientist, a primatologist, who was critical of what he said in the "Selfish Gene" as promoting what he called "veneer theory". Although it looked as though the disagreement was a misunderstanding.

In the UK, I believe you may be able to get hold of a DVD version of this documentary if you really want to see it.



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14 May 2012, 3:40 pm

Jono wrote:
Rocky wrote:
Jono wrote:
Rocky wrote:
I found the second segment especially thought provoking. We humans are proud for creating societies which have a social safety net for those who might otherwise lack the ability to survive otherwise. We are proud that the dog eat dog reality of the jungle has been replaced with being relatively peaceful. We still have wars of conquest, but that is the exception instead of the rule.

But I wonder how much of our progress is due to the over abundance that modern technologies have provided. We, the fifth ape, have come a long way from earlier times, when one nation state would conquer the other to take their resources and enslave the survivors. But are we as advanced in this way, as the Bonobos? They have no wars, no predation on other creatures, and no violence within themselves. I understand that their environment does provide them with an abundance of food, but they do not enjoy the abundance that we do. They live the slogan from the 60's: "Make love, not war."

We, the fifth ape, currently seem to be somewhere between the Bonobos and the Chimpanzees in terms of aggressiveness. Sorry if this seems a bit off the topic, since Dawkins didn't address this question directly. I saw nothing to dispute about what he did cover. I was already familiar with most of what he covered from reading "The God Delusion" and watching his YouTube videos. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed watching all three parts, and recommend watching, if you haven't yet.


I think Steven Pinker has done some research on this topic. Richard Dawkins did interview him in that video but didn't go into much detail about that particular topic. Apparently, we seem to have been getting progressively less aggressive since the beginning of civilization for some reason. However, we have always had a sense of morality arising out of altruism. You may want to look up the so-called "prisoner's dilemma" which I think illustrates how altruism could lead to best survival when living in a group and it also illustrates how and why it would of evolved.


Wild foxes in Siberia have been domesticated which not only resulted in a change from aggressiveness to gentleness, but actual physical changes. The breeders chose the more gentle of the foxes to breed, but the surprising part is the physical changes which made them appear more like dogs. They developed floppy ears, for example. They were not intentionally bred for those physical changes. Part of the change in behavior could be from being fed and cared for, rather than a predatory lifestyle required by living in the wild. These changes happened surprisingly quickly, though I don't remember the specifics.


Apparently it was an experiment to test the theory of how wolves were originally domesticated, to become our common household dogs today. The changes in physical features are believed to be due to lower adrenaline production in the foxes.


The insight it provided into the origin of dog domestication from wolves was an unexpected accident. Not the point of the expirament.
It was all the result of one simple behavioral test- have the human researchers stick a gloved hand into each fox's cage. The foxes that reacted by cowering snarling or biting- were ignored. The ones that reacted with curiousity- came forward and sniffed the glove- were breed to each other.

Thats it.

Within a few generations-presto- a whole new kind of domestic animal resulted. Domestic foxes that mimiced dogs in both behavior and in appearance.



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14 May 2012, 4:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Rocky wrote:
Thanks for the link. I look forward to seeing all 3 parts. I will let you know my thoughts. I don't remember the specifics, but a poll was taken a while ago (I think among scientists) of the most significant contribution to science, and Darwin's work was voted to be first, even above Einstein's Theory of Relativity, for example.


I personally consider Darwin to be the greatest scientist of all time.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I dunno man, Hawkins is a pretty clever dude. Darwin might have changed the world's paradigm but that was because of the nature of his theory, not necessarily because he was exceptional.

Though I do have to say, man did some solid work. That was rigor I could respect.


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