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Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe God exists?
1) God is a being, that one can have a personal relationship. A person God. 29%  29%  [ 55 ]
2) God is an impersonal force that guides reality as it is. He decrees our laws of physics, but does not intervene to break them. 12%  12%  [ 22 ]
3) God does not exist. Reality can be explained by scientific inquiry and the scientific method in by itself. 33%  33%  [ 62 ]
4) I am not sure. There is the possibility that God does exist, or does not. We must follow the preponderance of evidence when drawing our conclusion. 26%  26%  [ 48 ]
Total votes : 187

b9
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10 May 2016, 10:13 am

NoahYates wrote:
I personally interpret Spinoza to be a panentheist.
or maybe just a panty theorist. gnight



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10 May 2016, 10:18 am

I admire your conviction, Noah, but there are still disagreements here. I too love philosophy and it's no secret I've a lot to still learn.

Perhaps a new word for the "deity that created everything we see and answers prayers" is what is needed, as a compromise? But the fact that churchgoers use "God" to refer to something that must be worshipped and feared needs to be addressed. I guess some are fine having to explain their version of God each time.



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10 May 2016, 10:26 am

Yeah, I am somewhat strange in that I came to study theology through philosophy. I am not someone who preaches morals and dogma and "condemnation." With regard to prayer... it certainly seems like a stretch at face value to think God would answer prayers and listen to every person's innermost longings and provide subtle miracles. However, I love C.S. Lewis' take on the matter:


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 May 2016, 10:44 am

Scarabola wrote:
I suggested we leave "God" to what most people have called it (personified deity that created world and animals in present form), and find a new word to describe the non-personified deistic or pantheistic description of what you are talking about. I merely asked for discussion. If the concept of God is subject to interpretation, then there should be different words and names for different views, just like how there are different religions and names for Christian denominations.


I feel the need to make sure you understand the distinction between creationism and young earth creationism. The concept that God created the universe as we find it (through science, philosophy, and the humanities) and the idea that God created the universe, earth, and animals, as you say, as they are 6000 some years ago (and deny evolution) are two completely different schools of thought. The people who are the more general 'creationists' wholly rebuke the anti-intellectualism of the "young earth creationists."


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 May 2016, 11:38 am

Interesting talk by Neil Tyson degrasse https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3sApQ80QRiE



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10 May 2016, 11:59 am

What I'm trying to get at is: why are we calling the creator of the universe (no matter what it may be) "God"? (Correct me, but I seem to be getting this idea from you).

Technically quantum mechanics explains how the Big Bang happened, gravity and the elements formed our celestial bodies and eventually our planet, and chemistry led to organic cells that eventually evolved into us. Should all of these things and processes be called "God"?



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10 May 2016, 12:33 pm

I invite you to elaborate on how quantum mechanics explains our existence... including consciousness.


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 May 2016, 12:48 pm

First I can say that I am born atheist and I have not had any interaction with any religion growing up, except Christmas, etc. Now I see myself as religious.
For me believing is a feeling. The way I THINK about God and religion has not changed. For me it's not a discussion about scientific proofs of an existence or lack of God or about what any religious book says on the matter.
It's the way I FEEL that has changed. One day there was a certain thing happening that just made me believe. It didn't prove anything, I just got the feeling that there was a God.
The closest explanation I have for this is that I began believing when I had to.
I don't try to convince other people to believe something or not to and I don't belong to any church or certain religion.



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10 May 2016, 1:51 pm

talking about definition of God and Spinoza, Spinoza is tricky, because he uses dual language:
- on the surface talks about God in common sense (God as omnipotent creator)
- underneath talks about God in a philosophical sense (God in association with nature, as deified universe or deified nature, "deus sive natura")

Perhaps he did it (partly) out of prudence, still using the word God, because he was writing in 17th century Holland, a very religious environment, and he was a Jew, a minority that was accepted but not fully tolerated. Perhaps he wrote like that also out of conviction, stressing the connection between nature and the divine.
According to Spinoza it's not like God = nature, God is more like the power in nature, or mankind, power to live, to sustain, etc (power, potentia, determination, will). This idea, that there is some "determination" in nature, to create life for example, against all odds (=fine tuning), gives me a feeling that here's something special

source: Yirmiyahu Yovel, "Spinoza and other heretics", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yirmiyahu_Yovel
The "other heretics" in this book are (amongst others) Freud, Nietzsche



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10 May 2016, 1:59 pm

That is part of what I love about Spinoza... depending on the angle you take, his work can be interpreted in such a way as to support atheism, pantheism, panentheism, deism, and theism. I do not agree with him entirely, but the way he sets out his project with his axioms and definitions I found to be "epiphany" inducing when I first read Ethics. I felt moved by the holy spirit that day.


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 May 2016, 2:28 pm

Scarabola wrote:
What I'm trying to get at is: why are we calling the creator of the universe (no matter what it may be) "God"? (Correct me, but I seem to be getting this idea from you).

Technically quantum mechanics explains how the Big Bang happened, gravity and the elements formed our celestial bodies and eventually our planet, and chemistry led to organic cells that eventually evolved into us. Should all of these things and processes be called "God"?

They should be called the universe. Or if the cults of religion need something I would go with pantheism :)



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10 May 2016, 8:20 pm

What's in a name?

A colleague calls it
The Great Creator

I call it Wonderful

Sheldon knocks and says Penny
Penny
Penny

but I digress 8)


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10 May 2016, 10:11 pm

NoahYates wrote:
I can't tell if that is a joke or he is serious.


He may mean to imply that he has read/studied Alan Watts... "If I haven't read Alan Watts then you don't believe in God" type thing... But the problem is he has already made claims that demonstrate his total misunderstanding of Watts many times during this thread. I think he is particularly shaken by this fact, because he had always considered Alan to be one of his heroes. Now that I have shown him to be misguided he has even tried to say that Alan himself was a liar and was basically just trying to fool people to make money.

I didn't mention money at all. I said he's trying to trick people, for their own edification.



"It is well known to the great mystical traditions of the world,
all over the world, that the... sort of... supreme vision,
can only come, when you have got rid of every idea of God whatsoever."

Alan Watts



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10 May 2016, 10:17 pm

You should include the rest of the passage as well. :wink:


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 May 2016, 10:18 pm

Classic quote out of context to give a misleading impression. Anyone who is interested can copy and paste that quote into google and you will find the text from which it is taken.


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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11 May 2016, 7:39 am

I think that quote distills his thoughts perfectly, or would you like me to mention the part about scraping the pretty painting off the window in order to see?