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Fetal Rights & Forced Medical Treatment: Your Opinion?

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leejosepho
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20 Mar 2010, 8:07 am

Lecks wrote:
... we're considered a person after we exhibit sufficient human characteristics.
Quote:
And how shall we assure such a line is never drawn anywhere past the womb's exit?

Child protection laws ... "Child" being defined as "a person between birth and full growth".


I am having a very difficult time keeping the original question in mind, but I am still trying to follow your logic.

How would child protection laws address the matter of maternal rights versus fetal rights?


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leejosepho
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20 Mar 2010, 8:09 am

PLA wrote:
Question: Do you believe or do you not believe that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


How would anything I either believe or not have any bearing on this discussion?


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PLA
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20 Mar 2010, 12:07 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Question: Do you believe or do you not believe that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


How would anything I either believe or not have any bearing on this discussion?


Question rephrase: Do you claim or do you not claim that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


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leejosepho
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20 Mar 2010, 12:34 pm

PLA wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Question: Do you believe or do you not believe that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


How would anything I either believe or not have any bearing on this discussion?


Question rephrase: Do you claim or do you not claim that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


I have never before considered that question, and I do not care to consider it now.

The question before us here is the matter of alleged rights which are only in conflict when a pregnancy is either unwanted or someone insists it continue ...

How shall we human beings decide that matter?


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LKL
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20 Mar 2010, 10:48 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PunkyKat wrote:
No. If I ever get pregnant and they need to do countless ultrasounds or surgeries I will not do it. If they come to my house and try and force me to go to a clinic or hospital, I will pop a cap in their ass. If anyone tries to force me to have any prodecure done regardless of being pregnant or not I will pop a cap in them.


You make a good point: Pregnancy is not a medical condition, and it is not in need of medical treatment.


That was not the point. Pregnancy, just like 'life,' IS in fact a medical condition (just not usually one requiring dramatic intervention) and prenatal care dramatically improves both mother and infant outcomes if the pregnancy is to go to term. Hyperemesis - in which a woman can lose ten pounds in two days due to dehydration from vomiting and inability to swallow - is the mildest of the many common conditions that require medical intervention to maintain optimum health for both mother and zef.

Quote:
Lecks wrote:
... we're considered a person after we exhibit sufficient human characteristics.Quote:
leejosepho wrote:
And how shall we assure such a line is never drawn anywhere past the womb's exit?


Child protection laws ... "Child" being defined as "a person between birth and full growth".


leejosepho wrote:
How would child protection laws address the matter of maternal rights versus fetal rights?


Dude, you're the one who brought up born children. Don't go pretending that someone else was changing the topic.

Quote:
PLA wrote:
Question: Do you believe or do you not believe that legalisation of abortion poses a threat to the survival of the human race?


leejosepho wrote:
How would anything I either believe or not have any bearing on this discussion?


Again, it has bearing because you brought this issue up. Just answer the question so we can move on.

leejosepho wrote:
The question before us here is the matter of alleged rights which are only in conflict when a pregnancy is either unwanted or someone insists it continue ...


that is incorrect. Fetal and maternal rights are also in conflict when the medical care needed by one is harmful to the other: for example, when the mother needs teratogenic chemotherapy to treat cancer, or when the fetus requires the mother to be confined to bed-rest for months in order to be carried to term.
an example of the latter:
http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-freedo ... efuse-medi



ruveyn
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21 Mar 2010, 2:41 am

LKL wrote:

that is incorrect. Fetal and maternal rights are also in conflict when the medical care needed by one is harmful to the other: for example, when the mother needs teratogenic chemotherapy to treat cancer, or when the fetus requires the mother to be confined to bed-rest for months in order to be carried to term.




That is badly put. Fetuses can not require anything since they are not people. To put the matter more correctly: The mother will have to have extensive bed rest if she wishes to take the fetus to term and give it birth. It is the woman who does the requiring not the fetus. The choice is (or ought to be) with the woman. Not the doctor. Not society. Not the State. Not God.

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leejosepho
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21 Mar 2010, 10:21 am

ruveyn wrote:
Fetuses can not require anything since they are not people.


Yes, a fetus lacks ability to literally demand anything, but that is actually irrelevant since people, at least in order to survive as a species or whatever, need fetuses!

ruveyn wrote:
The choice is (or ought to be) with the woman. Not the doctor. Not society. Not the State. Not God.


Ah, now why did you have to go bringing "God" back into the mix? Are people truly incapable of rightly deciding what is best for mankind all on their own?!


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fidelis
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21 Mar 2010, 10:50 am

leejosepho wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fetuses can not require anything since they are not people.


Yes, a fetus lacks ability to literally demand anything, but that is actually irrelevant since people, at least in order to survive as a species or whatever, need fetuses!


Actually, we only need so many fetuses. Too many and resourses will be to scarce for the world to function. Too little and there won't be enough people to do the work needed. Right now we have too much, so abortion should be encouraged for potential mothers who can't do good job, but NEVER forced or recommended.


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PLA
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21 Mar 2010, 12:22 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Yes, a fetus lacks ability to literally demand anything, but that is actually irrelevant since people, at least in order to survive as a species or whatever, need fetuses!

Hmm. It looks like leejosepho is one of those shared accounts. Nothing wrong with that, just a bit confusing.


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21 Mar 2010, 12:32 pm

A fetus is a blob of tissue. Aim for saving the life of the woman first. We're overpopulated as it is.


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ruveyn
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21 Mar 2010, 2:31 pm

Postures wrote:
A fetus is a blob of tissue. Aim for saving the life of the woman first. We're overpopulated as it is.


A fetus is NOT a blob. It is very well structured. It is a prototypical human in its early stages and an incomplete human in its late stages.

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21 Mar 2010, 2:53 pm

fidelis wrote:
Actually, we only need so many fetuses. Too many and resourses will be to scarce for the world to function. Too little and there won't be enough people to do the work needed. Right now we have too much, so abortion should be encouraged for potential mothers who can't do good job, but NEVER forced or recommended.


And if the world decides that planet earth still hasn't reduced its surplus population, which I believe is just so much fiction, then what's to prevent the world's governments from killing off, just for starters, people 30-years old and older (like in the Logan's Run movie); and also all the sick people; overweight and underweight people; and all the people that the world deems ugly.


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LKL
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21 Mar 2010, 4:38 pm

leejosepho, whatever he is, begins to look like a troll.



PLA
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21 Mar 2010, 4:53 pm

JetLag wrote:
fidelis wrote:
Actually, we only need so many fetuses. Too many and resourses will be to scarce for the world to function. Too little and there won't be enough people to do the work needed. Right now we have too much, so abortion should be encouraged for potential mothers who can't do good job, but NEVER forced or recommended.


And if the world decides that planet earth still hasn't reduced its surplus population, which I believe is just so much fiction, then what's to prevent the world's governments from killing off, just for starters, people 30-years old and older (like in the Logan's Run movie); and also all the sick people; overweight and underweight people; and all the people that the world deems ugly.

Mostly people and hindersome protocols. What else? Giant robots from space?


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fidelis
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21 Mar 2010, 9:24 pm

JetLag wrote:
fidelis wrote:
Actually, we only need so many fetuses. Too many and resourses will be to scarce for the world to function. Too little and there won't be enough people to do the work needed. Right now we have too much, so abortion should be encouraged for potential mothers who can't do good job, but NEVER forced or recommended.


And if the world decides that planet earth still hasn't reduced its surplus population, which I believe is just so much fiction, then what's to prevent the world's governments from killing off, just for starters, people 30-years old and older (like in the Logan's Run movie); and also all the sick people; overweight and underweight people; and all the people that the world deems ugly.


Good point. I still don't see a lack of fetuses though. which happens to be leejosepho's lead argument right now.. I actually live in one of the top five cities as far as teen pregnancy rates go, and trust me, it's not a pretty sight to watch 300 highschool freshmen come in pregnant on their first day. That's 600 lives destroyed because of religion, consertives, traditional parents, and people who agree with leejosepho. It just doesn't make any sense that these children have to decimate their own and the lives around them because society says it's the "right thing to do." There is no such thing as good and evil; only opinions and politics. I can't remember who said that, but I agree.


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leejosepho
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22 Mar 2010, 8:18 pm

fidelis wrote:
I still don't see a lack of fetuses though. which happens to be leejosepho's lead argument right now..


No, not at all.

I am only asking how we human beings should handle the matter of pregnancy.

Should men have to beg women to bear children?

Should women have to beg men to leave them be?

Do the rest of us have any reasonable expectation either way?

At least in theoretical possibility, our continuance is at least partly dependent upon *some* kind of answers to those kinds of questions!


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