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Sand
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13 Jan 2011, 12:00 am

ikorack wrote:
Sand wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Well if there was a rebellion there would of course be defectors from the military, who could potentially bring military resources with them.


And when that happens whether or not you pack a handgun is of minor concern.


Not really, a handgun can be of life and death importance even in a skirmish, as can any extra arms.


But the fact that there is a major revolt in the armed forces hugely outweighs any citizen carrying a minor weapon.



LKL
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13 Jan 2011, 12:05 am

has anyone brought up the fact that Loughner had a clip with 30-some odd bullets in it?



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13 Jan 2011, 12:14 am

Sand wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Sand wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Well if there was a rebellion there would of course be defectors from the military, who could potentially bring military resources with them.


And when that happens whether or not you pack a handgun is of minor concern.


Not really, a handgun can be of life and death importance even in a skirmish, as can any extra arms.


But the fact that there is a major revolt in the armed forces hugely outweighs any citizen carrying a minor weapon.


No it doesn't, equipment is important yes but numbers and tactics are much more important, as long as you have a weapon that can kill as effectively as a handgun all you'll need is your strategy and enough men to effectively fight and maintain that strategy. one bullet is enough to kill, anyone.(and explosives and chemical weapons can be manufactured in a domestic environment if needed) A man and a gun is one soldier waiting to be trained and used.



Sand
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13 Jan 2011, 12:30 am

ikorack wrote:
Sand wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Sand wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Well if there was a rebellion there would of course be defectors from the military, who could potentially bring military resources with them.


And when that happens whether or not you pack a handgun is of minor concern.


Not really, a handgun can be of life and death importance even in a skirmish, as can any extra arms.


But the fact that there is a major revolt in the armed forces hugely outweighs any citizen carrying a minor weapon.


No it doesn't, equipment is important yes but numbers and tactics are much more important, as long as you have a weapon that can kill as effectively as a handgun all you'll need is your strategy and enough men to effectively fight and maintain that strategy. one bullet is enough to kill, anyone.(and explosives and chemical weapons can be manufactured in a domestic environment if needed) A man and a gun is one soldier waiting to be trained and used.


A man or a woman or a child with a handgun may be an effective weapon, an imbecile who is scared to death and shooting anything that moves (including another imbecile with a handgun) or somebody hiding in a cellar scared to death. It takes an organized military mind to form an effective force and weapons are helpful but not crucial. If somebody is that well organized he or she is probably already under close surveillance by government and probably would be more effective politically than militarily. The USA is sliding rapidly towards totalitarianism but there is still a long distance to go and political rather than military objection is a far better road to correction.



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13 Jan 2011, 12:44 am

Yes but a potential commander can't really fight without resources. The government can't possibly know everyone with talent in strategic thinking.



Sand
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13 Jan 2011, 12:53 am

ikorack wrote:
Yes but a potential commander can't really fight without resources. The government can't possibly know everyone with talent in strategic thinking.


And a bunch of sadistic nuts armed to control a situation in a chaotic world of revolutionary fervor is, according to history, more likely to produce pillage and murder and rape than any civil order. A bunch to flee from rather than join.



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13 Jan 2011, 12:54 am

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I'm still not sure what role in "defence against tyranny" handguns and rifles and the like serve, when the tyrant has handguns, rifles, armoured cars, tanks, planes, UAVs, satellites, aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons, spies, policemen, artillery, paratroops and divisions of infantry... nice token though I suppose. (Actually, do you still have paras?)

don't forget the laser-shooting planes. The force-field tanks and the killer robots

But I have a colt!


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Jacoby
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13 Jan 2011, 1:08 am

LKL wrote:
has anyone brought up the fact that Loughner had a clip with 30-some odd bullets in it?
pretty irrelevant

he could just have 2 guns with 15 round clips, it would of been exactly the same



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13 Jan 2011, 3:20 am

Here's a very similar weapon to the one used in the Tuscon shooting, with the same extended aftermarket magazine inserted:

[img][800:750]http://www.radioactive-software.com/images/Guns/11.jpg[/img]

Notice how far the magazine extends out of the butt of the gun, which renders it virtually useless from a concealed carry perspective. The magazine is not actually designed for that gun, it's intended for use with the Glock 18 machine pistol, a weapon not available on the civilian market but sold to police and military buyers. Glocks are designed with largely interchangeable parts for production and maintenance reasons, so the magazines are largely compatible within the caliber and will interchange between different models.
It bears pointing out that the Glock is among the most commonly issued police duty weapons and a common choice of licensed carriers, where the high capacity, reliability and accuracy are seen as it's desirable attributes. The 9mm Glock pistol likely to be found on a policeman's belt has an off the shelf magazine capacity of 17 rounds + the 1 in the chamber. Most police weapons have similarly high capacities, usually in the 15-19 round area with 9mms, though some departments have changed over to .45 ACP and the lower capacity pistols that chamber it, usually holding 7-12 rounds. Civilians tend to choose similar weapons, though often in the compact or subcompact variants for ease of concealment.
Police and armed civilians have similar motives for preferring large magazines, i.e. that it's better to have more shots than you need than not enough. Unfortunately this also works for people who would misuse guns.
Be that as it may, very few criminal incidents involve extended magazines, and in light of the well documented failure of the AWB's magazine restrictions to have any effect on crime, I don't think the case for restricting them can convincingly be made. IMHO, when proposing a restriction on the rights of fellow citizens, it is the duty of the prohibitionists to make and prove the case for their proposal, and since this one has actually been tried before and proven ineffective, I don't feel inclined to try it again.


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Sand
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13 Jan 2011, 3:33 am

Dox47 wrote:
Here's a very similar weapon to the one used in the Tuscon shooting, with the same extended aftermarket magazine inserted:

[img][800:750]http://www.radioactive-software.com/images/Guns/11.jpg[/img]

Notice how far the magazine extends out of the butt of the gun, which renders it virtually useless from a concealed carry perspective. The magazine is not actually designed for that gun, it's intended for use with the Glock 18 machine pistol, a weapon not available on the civilian market but sold to police and military buyers. Glocks are designed with largely interchangeable parts for production and maintenance reasons, so the magazines are largely compatible within the caliber and will interchange between different models.
It bears pointing out that the Glock is among the most commonly issued police duty weapons and a common choice of licensed carriers, where the high capacity, reliability and accuracy are seen as it's desirable attributes. The 9mm Glock pistol likely to be found on a policeman's belt has an off the shelf magazine capacity of 17 rounds + the 1 in the chamber. Most police weapons have similarly high capacities, usually in the 15-19 round area with 9mms, though some departments have changed over to .45 ACP and the lower capacity pistols that chamber it, usually holding 7-12 rounds. Civilians tend to choose similar weapons, though often in the compact or subcompact variants for ease of concealment.
Police and armed civilians have similar motives for preferring large magazines, i.e. that it's better to have more shots than you need than not enough. Unfortunately this also works for people who would misuse guns.
Be that as it may, very few criminal incidents involve extended magazines, and in light of the well documented failure of the AWB's magazine restrictions to have any effect on crime, I don't think the case for restricting them can convincingly be made. IMHO, when proposing a restriction on the rights of fellow citizens, it is the duty of the prohibitionists to make and prove the case for their proposal, and since this one has actually been tried before and proven ineffective, I don't feel inclined to try it again.


The version I read of the incident indicated that when the perpetrator stopped firing to reload a bystander used the opportunity to tackle and subdue him. With a shorter magazine that opportunity would have arrived sooner and might have saved some lives.



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13 Jan 2011, 4:25 am

Sand wrote:
The version I read of the incident indicated that when the perpetrator stopped firing to reload a bystander used the opportunity to tackle and subdue him. With a shorter magazine that opportunity would have arrived sooner and might have saved some lives.


Maybe, maybe not. This type of incident is sufficiently rare that I don't think it justifies new laws.


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91
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13 Jan 2011, 4:28 am

Dox47 wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. This type of incident is sufficiently rare that I don't think it justifies new laws.


You have an interesting definition of rare. How many mass shootings have there been in the United States in the last two decades?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/11/06/pa ... ed-states/


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13 Jan 2011, 5:03 am

It's still pretty rare. You have to remember the US is a country of 300 million people. Are there things we should learn from this tragedy? Of course but it's irrational to pass laws restricting our freedoms in return for being more "safe" based purely on emotion. Look what that got us with 9/11, the PATRIOT Act, the TSA, DHS, etc. The actually threat today of a mass shooting is no higher now than it was last Friday.



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13 Jan 2011, 5:07 am

^^^^

How many mass shootings have you had in comparison to the rest of the world? How many school shootings? What about the gun death rate in general. All of these things happen a great deal more in the United States than they do in any other developed country. How many will it take before you actually decide there might be a problem?


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13 Jan 2011, 5:08 am

91 wrote:
You have an interesting definition of rare. How many mass shootings have there been in the United States in the last two decades?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/11/06/pa ... ed-states/


Numbers are from 2006

Deaths:
Mass killings with handguns: 6
Homicide with firearms (total): 12,791 (includes justified shootings and police shootings)
Homicide by means other than firearms: 5782
Automobile accidents: 45,316
Water, air, and space accidents: 1915
Accidental Drowning: 3579
Accidental exposure to smoke: 3109
Accidental exposure to noxious substances including poisonings: 27,531
Firearms accidents: 642
Septicemia: 34,234
HIV: 12,113
Cancer (all combined): 559,888
Diabetes: 72,449
Alzheimer's Disease: 72,432
Heart disease: 631,636


I'm not too concerned. Certainly not concerned enough to pass a law.


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Sand
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13 Jan 2011, 5:10 am

Dox47 wrote:
Sand wrote:
The version I read of the incident indicated that when the perpetrator stopped firing to reload a bystander used the opportunity to tackle and subdue him. With a shorter magazine that opportunity would have arrived sooner and might have saved some lives.


Maybe, maybe not. This type of incident is sufficiently rare that I don't think it justifies new laws.


What number of people would you desire killed before something is done about it?