Israel/Palestine, how to find out the truth??

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My point is that no international law orders American policy, neither we or government would feel guilt at turning away refugees because international law says so. The only guilt there would be is that we could not or would not accept them, that it is international law is irrelevant to us.

In short, the U.S.A. is a sovereign nation. We are bound by no law other than our own. Anyone who wishes to differ with the U.S.A. on that matter can take it up with our armed forces.

ruveyn

People are usually not lying about this issue, because it's not a lie if you believe in it.

The true story is actually very rarely told to foreign people, as I see it. I know it, my friends do, my Arab fellow students in the Uni also do, but people who spread propaganda abroad tell different stories.
It's always funny to me how there are people who speak against what "Israel does to the Arabs", and Arab people that I know are full of criticism towards Israel, but also sound nothing like Israel's criticisers abroad. And then you have to "Israel supporters", who know nothing about what's happening here, but are happy to send my friends to wars, and always say that "Israel has a right to defend itself", without taking in account that innocent people will be killed, from both sides, always. It looks like a game to them. It has nothing to do with what happens here. Then, yes, you have real Palestinian and Israeli people preaching about the situation, and telling totally different stories of the same accounts - but again, they're not lying, they really believe in their theories.

In short:
Zionism began as a movement to find a national homeland for Jewish people, to solve "the Jewish problem". We were unwanted everywhere, and a lot of people who still saw themselves as part of other nations became disillusioned with antisemitism. This made people think of creating a homeland for Jews. There were several options that were brought up, but Israel was always destined to "win" as the location. It was always considered a home by Jews, who left in times of Roman rule. Jewish/Judean nationalism was always quite strong, that's why the Romans had trouble here. Unlike other places, here they actually had to fight several rebellions, which resulted in a new religion (Christianity) and a diaspora of Jewish people. The Romans were sick of the Jewish rebellions, and their refusal to accept the Roman rule, so they decided to destroy Jerusalem, and renamed Judea to Syria-Palaestina, which consisted of more-or-less Syria and Judea, if I remember correctly. The original Palaestina has nothing to do with Palestinians, it was the name for a group of ethnic people according to the bible, and it was the name of their land, which is more-or-less where Gaza is today. Over the years some Jews came back, some waited for the Messiah to come and redeem them, some just dreamt of coming back, but we always remembered Israel, and mentioned it in weddings, holidays, etc.

The beginning of Zionism was actually before the British Mandate, during the Ottoman rule. Palestine was merely a district, and there wasn't really a Palestinian nation. There probably wasn't a lot of nationalist sentiments at that time, and people estimate that Palestinian nationhood began either as a response to Zionism, or when Turkish nationalism started, and until that point Palestinian people were simply Ottoman citizens. I heard that there was also an Arab movement to gain independence from the Ottomans, not sure about that though... Anyways, this land was mostly unsettled. It still is today. But most of what we have here was built by Jews. So the Zionist settlers didn't really "steal" a country. They built it.

As for the other population? There were many different ideas, as a bi-national country, or two countries, or a federation, or other possible solutions. But the mainsteam idea was that we just need a homeland. The extremist Etzel and Lehi were not in good terms with the Hagana (the major Jewish national movement in Israel), as the Hagana insisted not to respond violently to attacks on Jews unless it's self-defense. That what the name actually means, Hagana=defense. Most of them were inspired by left wing ideas from Europe, which included socialism, living in communes (kibbutzim), and opposed to racism. Yes, Zionists were divided because most of them had no problems of sharing the land, and only the Etzel and the Lehi did... By the way, the Druze inhabitants fought alongside the Jews, because they treated them better than the Muslims. And they were just as native as the Muslims and Christians were... However they did not identify as Palestinians, and mostly still don't to this day, simply because there wasn't such an identity back then.

So, later on, when the 1947 partition plan was approved, the Hagana celebrated, but the Etzel and the Lehi did not accept it. They didn't really have major power, so luckily for them the Arab leadership rejected it as well, and forced the Hagana to cooperate with the right-wing in the war over the land. Later the Jewish organisations still battled each other, but that's for another discussion. Anyways, as far as I recall Syrians wanted this land for themselves (as Greater Syria), and so did the King of Jordan, so this war wasn't really for a Palestinian state by their side. They supported the Arabs in Palestine/Israel, or the Muslims here, but not the Palestinian people. They did not care for such nation... After the Zionists won Egypt controlled the Gaza strip, and Jordan controlled the West Bank, while most of the land was under Israeli rule. In 1967, when Israel's existence was still in danger, more land was taken, but wasn't annexed, because Israel didn't want to make this a part of Israel officially. And then the illegal occupation and settlements began.

So that's the first part. You have to understand it in order to understand what happens today, and why Israel's actions today don't mean they "kicked Palestinians out" or "stole a land". I wrote a lot for one message so I'm gonna stop here for now, but you're free to ask questions, to comment, to ask for sources, to contradict me, etc. - and so is everyone else. Feel free to ask anything about Israel, and I'll try to give you an objective answer, as much as possible, as an Israeli Jew who votes radical left. I pretty much know both narratives, and I don't justify "my" side automatically. I did tell the story of Zionism from my side, that's true, but that's mainly as a response to criticism of "stealing in the land". I'm by no means saying that the Zionists were all perfect. If anyone sees anything wrong with what I wrote - feel free to mention it. I also "correct" Jews who tell this story from their angle...

Why should I leave my home?
And who are you to decide what's "a better personal choice" for me? I'm pretty sure that it's a better personal choice for me to stay with my familiy and friends in my homeland.
As you said:

You are not an Israeli, so why do you speak for Israelis? Nevermind that you actually claim to know what's best for all Jews, which sounds a bit pretentious to me. You are not all Jews. And just because you've been to Israel and hate it, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad for people to live here. Especially not for people who were born here, and their whole lives, work, favourite sports team, local pub, language, family, relationships, childhood memories - all are in Israel.

Saying Jews shouldn't go to Israel, or shouldn't have gone to Israel - that's one thing. Saying that Israelis should leave Israel - that's completely another thing. And by the way, many Israelis go to America only to move back to Israel later. But, well, if you say that moving millions of people at once is a good thing...


If you look at Jews as simply "followers of the Jewish religion", you might be right.
But that's not the situation. It never was. Even according to the religion, a Jew cannot stop being a Jew, even if he converts, and believing in the Jewish faith doesn't make you Jewish. Actually, according to the religion, if you believe in it you have far less "mitzvot" to do as a "righteous gentile", than Jews are required to. You don't have to become a part of the Jewish nation, even though you can.

Zionism is a secular movement, by large.
By the way, if you notice - Christians are named so because they follow Christianity. Muslims are named so because they follow Islam. Jewish people are named so because they originate from Judea. And Judaism is called "Judaism" because of its followers, sort of like calling they religion of the Maya people "the Mayan religion".
I'm not sure that in the Roman times it was even considered a religion, rather than a traditional faith of local people.

Last edited by Omerik on 02 Apr 2011, 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

What does "peace" mean and does it include full voting rights in Israeli elections for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza?

I personally love the brainless condensation in this post. Yes, almost everyone in the world knows about you're GLORIOUS REVOLUTIONARY WAR. The problem, of course, is that after you're GLORIOUS REVOLUTIONARY WAR, the instruments of administrative authority outlined in THE CONSTITUTION known as THE CONGRESS and THE SUPREME COURT signed a bunch of treaties. Furthermore, if you had any knowledge of history you would know that the Founding Fathers pretty much disagreed with each other on a lot of things, had next to know idea on how the consitution would be interpreted in 200 years and left that up to the courts, and that the revolutionary war was initally only supported by 1/3 of American colonists. But, hey, what do I know compared to a ahistorical poster who speaks for THE AMERICAN PEOPLE™?

We can stick them in refugee camps though, where they can either wait for a third country to take them in or request repatriation.

I can't speak for him, but I guess that he speaks about Palestinian independence, a case in which there is no reason for Palestinians to vote in Israeli elections...

The problem is that the PLO, which is recognised as the Palestinian government, actually, has no control over Gaza. Some say that it's in Israel interest that they are divided, and that Hamas is in control, because no one expects you to cooperate with them.

Anyways, adding of new settlements shouldn't have happened in the first place, since Israel didn't annex Gaza or the West Bank. How this will end, everyone in Israel knows - they will get a country made of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and have East Jerusalem as their capital. Only a question of time, and how many people will have to die to reach that day. The main problem with this circle of violence is the control of Hamas. Israel already accepts that the PLO are "worth negotiating with", and enough people in Israel support the two-state solution, although not all of them support the dividing of Jerusalem yet, unfortunately. But the numbers keep going up as much as I know. However, no one trusts Hamas, and they are truly not in a position to be a part of negotiations. Plus, they don't recognise not only Israel, but the PLO as well. It took years to reach agreed points with the PLO, and luckily Rabin was brave enough to sign the Oslo accords. But now with Hamas, it's complicated. The PLO aren't going to give up Gaza, that's why "peace with the West Bank" is not an option in my opinion.

I hope that they can regain control over the strip, because until that happens, there won't be any peace or independence to Palestinians. Luckily for us and for the Palestinians, at least the Hamas can't take control of the West Bank, probably, as they are less extreme, and live in better conditions. Which is a cycle that feeds itself, of course... They aren't in the best condition possible, but in Gaza it's far more worse. I heard that there are even cooperations between Israeli hi-tech companies and Palestinians in the West Bank, some TV report showed Ramallah and it actually looked better that what most of us would have thought. Note that it is not to say "look, they're fine, they should stop complaining", but the opposite - this is to show that they're not as "primitive and barbarian and dangerous" as some people here think. It's good because it shows how they can get better with the time, and how this makes them less anti-Israel - which leads people to accept the idea of their independence.

In Gaza... Well, it's complicated. They hate Israel, they live in hell, and the Israeli government certainly isn't doing anything to get the situation better. Not wanting to look weak in their eyes and in the Israeli voters' eyes, probably, is at least one of the reasons. Meanwhile they're under control of religious fundamentalists, which is not very good for anyone, and especially not the Christians there, I guess - I remember reading (in a Wikipedia article) that Hamas has burned the only Christian book shop in Gaza, if I'm not wrong. Basically, from what I know, the organisation which is "Hamas" in the West Bank has nothing to do with the one in Gaza, except for the name. The people of the West Bank obviously don't want this kind of regime, and according to a number of writers and reporters, they differentiate them from Gaza with some kind of perhaps arrogance, as seeing the Gazan people as "less civilised". Perhaps they see them as hurting their own chances for peace, as Israeli leftists see the Israeli right wing... Difference is that here it's really different places, not only different views. They don't even speak the same language, most likely. Even in Israel not all Arabs speak the same dialect, but I think that at least in the north they are beginning to get "one" accent, an urban one, for those who leave in towns. As happens in many places with regional dialects that differ from one village to another, and with time they become one, or at least close to that.

So - as you see, Gaza and the West Bank are almost two different (not-independent) countries... Which, again, some say is an interest of the Israeli government. Not only it makes them focus on one another, but it leaves the government with the ability to answer a question with a question. When people ask when will Palestine be freed, they can ask "which Palestine".

Right now? It doesn't look too promising, I know, but note that 10 years ago, when there were talks of removing the Gaza settlements (which indeed were removed), there were talks about reaching an agreement to an independent state in the (then-)next decade, as far as I remember. Now we are talking about this decade. I think that even when it seems that we're going backwards, we are actually getting closer as time goes by.

Your suggestion is a fallacy to begin with.

[x] Thinks that Jews only live in Israel and that everyone in Israel is a Jew.

wow a chart of uncited estimates of a scientificaly unsound principle from a conservative satirical website.
I guess I have to change my views us Jews is Dumb.

I don't claim to speak for the group only as an individual.
I think it best for any individual in Israel, Israeli or palestinian (especially the secular ones of both groups) to live in the U.S.
especially if the reason for living there is nationalistic.
but one at a time please. an air lift is not necessary.
this is of course Until the Messiah Comes.
until then america is the choice for this jew, and my advice for all jews.
canada is nice too

Why do I get the feeling they never even bothered to do a study in Israel in the first place...

Okay, sorry if sounded a bit hostile.
But please explain to me why the US is good for every person in Israel. What's so good about it?
And don't you take in account the societal/familial (is there such a word?) aspect?
Moving countries is not something that people easily do.

The reason I live here by the way is that it's my home. Nothing to do with nationalism, or a Messiah.
I honestly wonder, why should I move to the States?
And again, are you aware that many people in Israel move to North America, but come back?