Male circumcision

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Lecks
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25 Oct 2011, 1:39 pm

I agree with everything you've said, Visagrunt. My main grievance with neonatal circumcision lies with the ethical implications of performing such a procedure without consent of the patient and whether culture is sufficient cause to subvert the infants' autonomous rights.

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lilypadfad
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25 Oct 2011, 1:56 pm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html

Here's an interesting site, goes into some detail about the mechanics of the foreskin in sex. Lots of studies and science (but still obviously cherrypicked and possibly biased, plus lots of personal accounts).

"When a man is circumcised in adulthood, his loss of sensation has been well documented elsewhere. It has been compared to sight without colour, hearing with one ear or seeing with one eye." :cry:

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25 Oct 2011, 3:01 pm

http://intactnews.org/node/138/13194619 ... rcumcision

Another summary type article.

Inuyasha
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25 Oct 2011, 3:07 pm

Lecks wrote:

On the flipside the procedure becomes more dangerous the older the patient is.

Jacoby
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25 Oct 2011, 3:59 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Lecks wrote:

On the flipside the procedure becomes more dangerous the older the patient is.

Marginally maybe. Done in the proper settings it's probably less dangerous than getting your wisdom teeth pulled.

The reason it's done to infants is because most men wouldn't be too eager to chop something off their own body, especially that part, and people that have it done as a baby have children of their own are a lot more likely to choose it as well since they'll have rationalize it to themselves.

There really is no reason at all to do it to children, they don't have to worry about STDs and extremely rare cancer. Those are adult concerns. I'm not one for banning things but I kinda lean towards banning it for those not old enough to consent because the rights of the child needs to be protected. Let the jews have an exception so they shut up about being persecuted.

ruveyn
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25 Oct 2011, 4:40 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Lecks wrote:

On the flipside the procedure becomes more dangerous the older the patient is.

Not so much more dangerous as more uncomfortable. Done properly and observing clean dressing rules after ward there should be no great danger of infection, but it will hurt like hell for a while.

ruveyn

visagrunt
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25 Oct 2011, 4:58 pm

Lecks wrote:

Let's not forget that an infant's rights are no less an aspect of culture.

In the West we have developed a legal culture that enshrines the liberty and self-determination of the individual and protects the individual from arbitrary interference from the State, to be sure. But when we seek to give our legal culture primacy over other, practices drawn from other cultures I think we start getting into a very murky area.

Some cultural practices are properly forbidden--so-called honour killings and female genital mutilation are certainly high on such a list. Indentured service and bride prices are other examples. But I think the common denominator to all of these is the ongoing affront to life, liberty and security of the person that they represent. I am very hesitant to place male circumcision on a comparable level.

That does not mean that your concern is not valid--certainly this is an irreversible, invasive procedure undertaken without consent. But I have yet to be persuaded that it is of a sufficient gravity to justify its suppression.

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blunnet
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25 Oct 2011, 5:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Lecks wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

I have been to several brisses where the young male infant fell asleep while mohale trimmed him. Infants of age 8 days have very low pain awareness. I have only seen one briss where the infant cried and I was not sure whether he had gas or felt pain from the operation.

ruveyn

Very well, pain isn't always involved in the process. That still leaves lack of consent and unnecessary procedure.

Preventing cancer of the glans penis is not unnecessary.

If circumcision was to become the only way to prevent glans cancer and other preventions wouldn't exist, your assertion would make sense.

I mean, AFAIK, there is no evidence to conclude that circumcision is *absolutely* necessary, except for some circumstances.

Lecks
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25 Oct 2011, 5:33 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Lecks wrote:

I'm not in favour of outright banning the practice. Circumcision generally doesn't have an adverse impact on a person's quality of life and even though I have ethical issues with the practice, forcefully denying people from partaking in ingrained cultural rituals isn't an appealing option to me.
Optimally I'd strive to gradually remove the practice from the participating cultures but as with Judaism and Islam it may be too deep-seated to ever be feasible. At most I can attempt to dissuade some individual people from doing it to their sons, but that's as far as I'm willing to go with this.

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Obres
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25 Oct 2011, 5:48 pm

visagrunt wrote:

The comparison to female genital mutilation is, I suggest, misplaced because that procedure most assuredly has a significant clinical impact on the sexual health of the woman.

Millions of circumcised women who are indoctrinated into their cultures or faiths would disagree with you. Who's to say circumcised men aren't falling victim to the same type of thinking? In either case, many circumcised men and women think it's fine and dandy, while many others feel that they've irrevocably lost something.

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25 Oct 2011, 7:08 pm

Lecks wrote:

Joker wrote:

I do not remmeber being in any pain when I was circumcised because I was a baby when I was circmcised.

So you consider inflicting pain on infants acceptable because they won't remember it later in life?

It is up to the mother and father if they wish their child to be circumised the main reason people think its wrong is because Jews Muslims and Christians support their infants being circumcised if it didnt start out as a religious practice people would be all for it.

ruveyn
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25 Oct 2011, 7:22 pm

Lecks wrote:

......with Judaism and Islam it may be too deep-seated to ever be feasible. At most I can attempt to dissuade some individual people from doing it to their sons, but that's as far as I'm willing to go with this.

Save your energy and do not try to talk Jews and Muslims out of it.

Forbidding circumcision started a war. The Hasmonian Revolt. The Priest Mattithaus and his sons would not stand for abolishing circumcision. celebrating the New Moon and other Jewish rituals. The restrictions started a war that lasted 30 years which the Greeks lost.

Don't f**k with the Jews. Germany did and look what happened to them.

ruveyn

Jacoby
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25 Oct 2011, 7:25 pm

Joker wrote:

Lecks wrote:

Joker wrote:

I do not remmeber being in any pain when I was circumcised because I was a baby when I was circmcised.

So you consider inflicting pain on infants acceptable because they won't remember it later in life?

In the US it's not done for religious reasons. It started out because at end of the 19th century they didn't want boys to masturbate because they believed it would lead to insanity and criminality and became the norm with the world wars. Christians aren't required to circumcise, that was one of the main draw points of early Christianity. Muslims aren't even really required to be circumcised, it's not mentioned in the Qur'an. Only the Jews require it, specifically 8 days after birth.

AspieRogue

25 Oct 2011, 7:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Lecks wrote:

Not gonna happen this time around. This is still a secular quasi-democracy and if you people have that much of a problem with the abolition of male circumcision, you can move to israel. :wink:

Last edited by AspieRogue on 26 Oct 2011, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lecks
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25 Oct 2011, 8:08 pm

Joker wrote:

It is up to the mother and father if they wish their child to be circumised

No, it's up to the child. If the child isn't yet capable of giving his consent then it shouldn't be done, end of.

Joker wrote:

the main reason people think its wrong is because Jews Muslims and Christians support their infants being circumcised if it didnt start out as a religious practice people would be all for it.

I won't even bother with this. Ugh.

ruveyn wrote:

I don't want to forbid anything, I'm talking about a gradual removal of an outdated practice.

Your defensive remarks don't add anything to this discussion, as Jews aren't being specifically targetted. You can keep clinging to your rituals of course, I won't stop you but if I can't get through to you then I'll talk to more amicable individuals.

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blunnet
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25 Oct 2011, 9:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Don't f**k with the Jews. Germany did and look what happened to them.

Last time I knew it was the allies who won WWII.

I doubt the jews are to blame for Germany losing WWI (which Hitler put the blame on them) as well WWII.

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