In your view was Jesus a human or God or both ?

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"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools [in turning away from God]." (Romans 1:22)

His influence IS clearly demonstrated to those who study the universe with minds open enough to recognize His clear hand in the mind-bogglingly meticulous design of the universe, from the macrocosmic to the subatomic. God has hidden His face, but He has not hidden the clear work of His hands. (Romans 1:20: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.") But, apparently, these things which Paul mentioned should not influence one's faith -- even though he just said that it should!

http://amultiverse.com/2011/11/17/youve-got-some-nerve/ (The giraffe nerve thing is true, and the comic artist includes a link under the comic. At best this shows meticulous stupidity.)

Wait, you're not claiming a first in humans thinking God limited, are you? That can't be it, for you know people have challenged God's goodness and omnipotence for thousands of years, and you know I know that as well -- so what is your point exactly?

I enjoyed reading comments found at scienceblog dot com, under the article "The Laryngeal Nerve of the Giraffe is Proof of Natural Selection." Comment #9 regarding this study and conclusion (Jeff's commentary) is so well articulated.

I agree with Jeff's point about artistic license and humor. God may not always design in maximum efficiency. That assumption makes God into a left brain only thinker.

The universe can be considered the work of A god.
But that god could just as well be Wodan, Zeus, or Xenu. One doesn't have to come to the conclusion that the universe is the work of the Abrahamic God.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I don't know what else to say. I've shown you what Scripture has to say on the fact that faith is always partially born of evidence, and you haven't shown me otherwise from Scripture.

The mind engages. One cannot, and should not try to, prevent that.
Belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is supported by study and thus reason, and it's common sense that God means that to be the case. (I guess we're done going around in circles now.)

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that faith is based on evidence.
After all, when Jesus had said, "Suffer not the little children to come on to me," he added that one must be as these to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
And as I've already stated, I believe faith and conversion isn't a choice we make, by which evidence might come into play, but rather is a gift from God, who holds our salvation in His hands alone.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The "as a little child" admonition by Jesus can be widely interpreted, and I take it to mean "with full trust", not "trust based on nothing". As Christ taught elsewhere, "he who, after setting his hand to the plow, then looks back, is not worthy of me." So once again, there is that concept of full trust and full commitment. It's not about modeling a child's stupidity, but rather being as full-intentioned and as certain as children usually are about their decisions.


Again, it is both -- the two concepts, while able to be spoken of academically and in theory as two, in the real world function as one, and it is false to call them separable things. Several times the New Testament exhorts us to be Saved. If becoming Saved were entirely a matter of no human choice, why would Scripture tell us to make that choice as it does? John the Baptist preached with great polemical force of words, basically commanding people to "Repent!" By your logic John the Baptist would be an unnecessary prophet, yet Jesus called him the greatest prophet who ever lived! John's voice would have been entirely redundant to God's personal call to Salvation to certain people, the call which you claim causes conversion all by itself.

And what of messianic prophecy? There are at least 333 Old Testament prophecies which Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled, some by the place, time, and lineage through which he was born, others through what he said, did, and how he was received (including his execution), and most crucially others about how he would save many people from their sins.

So, your view would be that God gave these messianic prophecies in the Old Testament that Jesus was the messiah, just 'cuz?
God by no means meant us to care? The idea is maddening. If you believe something because your church elders tell you to believe it, then okay I can understand. But if we're talking about personal conclusions, I see no way to develop your belief in evidence-free faith that Jesus is all that He said He is.

I've already stated, from a human perspective, it would appear that the choice is offered to us, but without the Holy Spirit working faith in us, we would reject the gift of grace. Plus, there's the matter of predestination, where, as Paul points out, God had chosen us for grace before the creation of the world.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Predestination has to do only with who will be Saved, and is necessarily mysterious to us humans, as is everything God did at the beginning of time. But the means by which a person comes to faith is by the evidence and the Holy Spirit -- as God has provided us with very large and detailed biblical evidence toward our salvation, and also with His Holy Spirit -- both being specifically mentioned in the Bible as bringing about repentance and thus salvation.

An example of the importance Jesus Himself placed on prophecy fulfillment for belief:
Belief prompted by evidence.


Jesus rebuking some for not believing John the Baptist (as he taught them from the Old Testament) and thus rejecting their own salvation, while He praises those who did believe John, and thus repented:


Some heard and believed, others did not. Why would Jesus praise the receivers and criticize the rejectors if they had no choice?

Thus, evidence for a belief is an ingredient in bringing about that belief.

I never advocated a double predestination - one to salvation, the other to damnation.
And I never once said we didn't have the right to reject the gift, we just can't accept it under our own power.
I also said that the written and spoken word are means of grace, as are the sacraments (baptism and communion) which we believe are the physical manifestation of the word. It's by these that the Holy Spirit can come to us through hearing and reading in order to work faith in us.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The one who impregnated Mary Magdalene, of course.

Now that Jesus never was!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer