Free-will and Atheism

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It is a problem, as there is no way to verify their existence otherwise! Chances are the story did not originate with the Bible any more than the story of Noah's flood did. It probably originated with some Mesopotamian city state



Where is the evidence of the parting of the Red Sea? Of the world being covered with water? Talking about real places and real people is fine [the Bible does do this], but when you put them beside tales of miracles and magic, the former do not validate the latter. Otherwise Harry Potter has equal credibility to the Bible..



Have you seen a *convincing proof*? Do you believe things based on whether they have convincing "disproof" or convincing proof? I haven't seen any convincing disproof that Athena popped out of Zeus' head, therefore I will believe it because its probably correct and you can't disprove it



"Wisdom" is also in the eyes of the beholder, apparently. I do not find much wisdom in a book that encourages intolerance and feelings of superiority



There is no way to corroborate their stories, or existence, so they might as well be fictional. Evidence from scripture =/= evidence. Of course the Bible is going to provide "eyewitness accounts"



Does it? News to me. More modern reinterpretationism?



If you wish



I take it you like fantasy then. Have fun with that



I find your statement that you favor literalism anachronistic with your previous statements about reinterpretation. Please make up your mind



Okay well have fun finding "disproof that something doesn't exist", because that is really how investigations into facts works

Either because we choose to (free will) or because we can't help ourselves (determinism)...

Ah, free will. The best excuse for God not giving a s**t about us.

More assertions and no evidence. I've already explained how Adam and Eve and even Genesis 1 are even compatible with evolution. Even if evolving from apes is the beginning and the ending to the whole story, that STILL doesn't disprove Adam and Eve existed.

Adam and Eve being the "first humans" just means they were CEOs of all creation. It's not necessary that they were the first humans ever. If God is omnipotent, He very well could have specially created Adam and Eve and set them apart from the rest of creation. That's not out of line with evolution aside from suggesting evolution had nothing to do with God's creation of Adam and Eve specifically. To argue that Adam and Eve could not have even been a special creation or set aside as representatives of all humanity is entirely a product of anti-supernatural bias.

Then it just means that the Bible originated from a common tradition. Chances are also that the Mesopotamian city state stories originated from the earliest recorded cultures (post-Noah) in the Bible.


But you can't provide a convincing argument that those things DIDN'T happen. If the Bible proves reliable in ways that are verifiable, it's possible for it to be reliable in other ways.


I already believe the Bible and Christ's teachings as stated. I don't need to be "reconvinced." I need compelling reasons why I should change my mind. Those reasons have yet to be forthcoming.


Subjective opinions.


Then all court cases are fictional and all life sentences that have been served for, say, 30-50 years need to be overturned.

I can't make the decision to believe it for you. You just have to make up your own mind about it. I personally don't have a problem with the NT accounts.


Genesis 1 says God made man, male and female. Genesis 2 says God made Adam and Eve. Figure it out. Did God make man first, or Adam and Eve first?


Nah. It's just the irony.


If something is obviously a metaphor, it should be interpreted as such. That's all.


If someone has evidence that conclusively proves I should feel differently, I'm open to that. Still waiting...

I hope this is not off topic, but since we´re talking about Genesis I thought I´d lob out the question of how the dinosaurs fit into Christian belief. They are never mentioned in the Bible, nor in any other religious writings In know of. Monsters, sure, but nothing like dinosaurs. Did God just create the dino bones and place them directly in the ground? For what purpose?
If the answer is evoultion, then Genesis must be wrong, and if that is true how can we be sure of what is true and what is a false in the Bible? I know, we cannot. So how can we believe? Because we... can?

The existence of Adam and Eve is an extraordinary claim because we're talking about the existence of the first two humans according to the Bible (or CEOs of creation according to you). And it's an extraordinary claim that cannot be backed up with the required evidence to support it to the point that we should accept their existence as a fact.

So the burden is not on us to prove they never existed.



Or entirely a product of intellectual integrity + lots of good evidence backing up evolution + no good evidence for the Genesis story being true.

I don't understand your position at all.

For example, it says in Genesis that Eve was made from Adam's rib. You know that this isn't true, because it conflicts with what we know about how humans came to be.

Genesis also says that there were two first humans called Adam and Eve. This also conflicts with what we know about how humans came to be.

What is the difference between these two things? Why are you willing to abandon the first one but not the second?

EDIT: Wait, you do believe that Eve was made from Adam's rib? What?

So let me get this straight. You think that just after modern humans evolved, God supernaturally created two modern humans in some random place, and did the whole talking snake thing, which then affected all of the humans that had evolved?

I think that I could spend all day listing the ways in which that doesn't make sense. Here's one for you: the punishment for womankind was that they would suffer pain in childbirth. The punishment for men was that they would have to work in order to obtain food. Are you then saying that these conditions did not apply to the humans that had evolved until the Garden of Eden scenario happened? Um, what?

EDIT: And also, God only made snakes crawl on their bellies after the Garden of Eden scenario! But we have fossil records of snakes that crawl before humans ever appeared on the scene!

If there was a flood, I think it happened in the neolithic Black Sea basin. As for the whole ark business, that is from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I admire the fact that the ancient Hebrews also thought this story was awesome enough to rip off. But the ark story in there was about Utnapishtim, not Noah. It is possible that through word of mouth over the centuries, the legendary flooding of the Black Sea basin, caused by the erosion of the Bosphorus, would have appeared to be some sort of cataclysmic doom explained only by the supernatural. This is something all humans do, in a very short amount of time if they are preconditioned to it through ignorance (see: cargo cults).



The Black Sea deluge happened long before writing was used for literature. That should tell you, the legend lived on entirely through word of mouth. Early literature barely distinguished between fantasy and reality because the authors, being high priests or scribes, were writing about events long passed with contemporary religious ideas. This is why the story of the flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh is about Utnapishtim and his immortality granted from Sumerian Gods, and later when the Hebrews reuse the story, about Noah and their monotheistic beard-God



I don't consider human rights subjective, or the belief that everyone who does not believe as I do is going to be eternally punished particularly tolerant



Absurd, I recommend you check this out for more details into that: Details



Man made God first, then, God made man.



Yeah I know, living a life not considering the supernatural relevant or particularly believable is probably the most delusional way of life ever. Its a fantasy to think that there is no supernatural stuff doing supernatural things but making sure not to be actually observable while they do their supernatural things

Right, but as you so pointed out, "good" isn't a fact, it's an opinion. What makes your version of good any better than someone else's? Do you get to pick and choose what determines good (as being a fact) then when good is determined to be an opinion?

That presents an uncomfortable dichotomy.

Religion states this is good, this is bad. Atheism questions thousands of years of social experience but it doesn't willingly determine a rule set on how to behave, that's left to personal choice.

Once again driving home your bigoted opinion that Atheists are fundamentally immoral you obviously don't know, or do not acknowledge, secular humanism which requires no belief in God, and which most people, atheist or not, proscribe to, since there are values that are universally deemed "good" that have no religious attachment. Belief in God/s does not make one a good person. In fact, history seems to show otherwise. "Atheism" is not a monolithic institution, one does not base their morals and life around the most convenient way to describe a non belief or disinterest. "Thousands of years of social experience"... one does not need to be an atheist to question irrational beliefs that interfere with the lives of other people over trivialities that would be non-issues without the "supernatural"

If you think about it, doing good out of fear of punishment implies that most theists like you are themselves profoundly immoral since I and many others live good, peaceful, productive lives without fear of eternal damnation. Would you kill and rape if given the chance, or is it only fear of God that stops you?

I like that the jews ripped off mesopotamia. Just as christians ripped the jews (and pagans), the muslims ripped off all three and then the mormons and scientologists grabbed some bits and ran.

It's one big pyramind of theft. The copyright case that lawyers dream about at night.

The 25th Chapter of the Book of Matthew says that hell is the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Not you.

What about Revelations? The lake of fire? That most of Christendom believes you need to be "saved" from damnation in Hell? Most do not share your reasonable, ethical viewpoint on this, at least the ones that I tend to encounter...

Hardly know if that matters.

Even the devil and his angels - are they something that a supposedly omniscient being created? Check. Is it unethical for him to charge them with doing all of his dirty work and punishing them for his commands? Check.

That's right. I share Jesus' view.