Feminists versus MRA's at Toronto College

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This line is the best.

When a man is raped you don't tend to hear people talking about what he was wearing and whether it was "provocative"

You know what else is included with that line? Don't leave your drink unattended. It's a pathetic attempt to conflate common sense with legitimate victim blaming. Ideally, a man should not rape a woman. But imposing your ideals on rapists doesn't stop them from imposing their will on their victims, so suggesting that precautionary measures keep you safe and ideals don't isn't excusing the rapist's actions but acknowledging the reality that ideals only regulate those who believe in them.

To complicate things further, there's the whole rape culture concept which is an underlying assumption behind the subject of victim blaming. This is the biggest difference between me and feminists. I don't think rapists are conditioned to rape by some mythical rape culture but that the capacity to rape is just an extension of their extremely selfish, hateful, and domineering personality. When you reject precautionary measures in favour of ideals, it shows that you are more concerned with dealing with your pride than dealing with the dangers that exist independently of your indignation.

Last edited by AceOfSpades on 18 Apr 2013, 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yeah, cause male victims of rape and sexual assault are taken so seriously.

I was staying out of this thread originally because it was about two groups, both of whose attitudes and methods I find ridiculous, butting heads. f**k 'em, let them fight it out, what do I care?

But this off-topic stuff comparing male and female rape victims, trying to make it seem as though male victims are taken seriously and not blamed for it, is some of the most ignorant BS I've ever read.

When it happens to men you don't hear people talking about it at all. Most won't even acknowledge that it can happen to a man in the first place. And most of those who do acknowledge it consider it a f*****g joke.

I was raped..kind of ashamed and embarresed to admit it but it happened! Had a woman spike my drink and take advantage of my body without giving her my consent! I just know not to go to house parties with people I dont know very well any more let alone leave my drink unattended! As a guy if I reported it the police would laugh at me about it and not believe me! But maybe thats part of the patriarchy!

Yeah I'm not with either group. I never took men's right's activism seriously and this is the last straw for me when it comes to feminists. I absolutely can't stand them anymore and I'm writing them off for good now. I've had it with their f*****g one track minds and pushy BS. Apparently I'm either a misogynist or a feminist in denial if I happen to agree on some things. I remember when I used to be pro-life. No thanks to the god awful annoying feminists, I eventually changed my stance while solidifying my stance against them.

That's simply not true, though men are reluctant to report assaults, statistically it is women who receive the most sexual abuse. It is likely the level of reporting is proportionate to the amount of assaults, with a fairly large amount that do not come forward, probably similar to levels present in women. But still significantly less.



Says who? You?

Did you actually go to the police or did you just make an assumption about what their reaction would be?

I quoted a specific line, not the one you are mentioning. It was an excellent counter to the repeated argument that women should dress a certain way to avoid rape. I find this argument not only insulting towards women but insulting towards men. I am not an animal, I am not provoked into losing my good sense and committing Ur crime by the way a woman dresses, neither are most men. My commentary had nothing to do with the "drink spiking" line so I have no idea what you're going on about

I can answer to this one through robbery:

I try to not walk around in the street alone, or even with company, after a certain hour because I can get robbed.

I took a self-defense class because of muggers, thankfully it was offered by my university so it didn't really cost anything

I do not wear my best clothes if I know I may be going to a high-risk area

I do not invite strangers into my apartment; an uncle of mine was drugged and robbed by a woman he picked up at a bar

Drinking too much without trusted company is always a bad idea, that opens you up to a lot of bad stuff.

I'd never leave my drink unattended either, my drinks could get spiked by someone too.

The general advice around here during a mugging is to give them what they want, as life is more important than property and they usually carry knives with them. We are even encouraged to always have some money about to appease them; they are known to hurt and kill people out of anger if they honestly do not have anything of value.

And in the end, if I see someone who looks like a potential mugger I will avoid him or her; although I feel bad for stereotyping, the one time I gave one such people the benefit of the doubt went horribly wrong.



My stance on the topic is similar to AceOfSpades: in an ideal world, of course women should be able to dress as they please, walk around at night as they please, and current efforts to make our current world similar to that ideal one are to be praised. Victim blaming should have no place today either; if I left my door unlocked and then got robbed, the thief should still be the one to blame. Still, I should know better than leaving my door unlocked. I can't help but feel a bit like an a**hole, but I shouldn't let that stop me from giving my honest opinion. As long as robbers exist people sould take proper countermeasures against them, and as long as rapists exist women should take proper countermeasures against them. If rape is mostly a female issue, which I strongly suspect but with so many sources and arguments going either way I can't have a definite opinion yet, then it sucks to be a woman in that aspect, but the logic still stands.

Actually, evidence suggests that men may be even less likely to report it than women if the perpetrator is actually a woman. Speaking of which, this situation may be less likely than sexual assaults on women but it's probably more common than what people expect:

http://sax.sagepub.com/content/8/2/121.short

Did I say it happened more often to men? Did I say anything at all regarding the prevalence of male rape vs. female rape? I did not. If you want respond to me, or challenge the points I make, that's fine. But try reading what I actually write first, instead of using it as a jumping off point for an entirely unrelated tangent.

I pointed out that those men to whom it does happen are on the receiving end of just as much victim-blaming as women. To imply that they are not, which the piece LKL quoted, and you agreed with, most certainly did, is insulting. I do not see why the writer of that piece felt the need to deny the experience of one group of rape victims in order to make a point about the experience of another group. It accomplishes nothing other than to alienate people who've experienced the exact same trauma and the exact same ill-treatment by society, people who could, and should, be counted as valuable allies in the fight against our culture's acceptance of rape.

While there is a time and place for precautions, they simply do not solve the problem. In fact, they do almost nothing to address the problem.

The thing is, by teaching you this, they are teaching you to blame victims of robbery rather than taking the chance to stop teaching people to rob (and address the causes that make people want to rob in the first place, whether they be personal, economic, social or otherwise), which is really what needs to happen to solve the problem. No matter what precautions you take, if they are determined, they will rob you. It's the same thing with rape.

More intrinsically, a robber wants a *possession* of yours, which is nowhere near the same thing as wanting some part of *you*.

Last edited by Kjas on 18 Apr 2013, 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Actually, criminals go after the easiest targets or situations in which they think they won't get caught. Being careful is not placing blame on the victim. That's nonsense.

Taking precautions does not solve the problem, I agree with that. That's why I think the efforts of the feminist movement to educate people about rape and why it is wrong, which do address the problem, are to be praised, and the long term solution to robbery is yes, to stop people from robbing and addressing social inequality and such. The thing is, people won't stop robbing or raping tomorrow. And until that happens, precautions should be taken. They can't stop someone very determined, yes, but they can stall them, and stop someone not-so-determined.

Most of the cases rape is worse than robbery, yes (although the uncle I talked about was also severely beaten and had to undergo hospitalization) but this example is mostly as a counteexample to the "men wearing fedoras can be raped" argument, by showing why I don't think it unreasonable for women to take precautions because there are situations where taking such precautions is a good idea, maybe not with rape, but with something. In fact, if taking some part of me would be worse than wanting my possessions (which is true) then taking precautions against rape would be more important than taking precautions against robbery

My views on victim blaming are... mixed. Something I've noticed in my culture is that victim blaming is prevalent, widespread, to the point it hasn't really been contested yet. We have a very specific word, "huevón", or "mucha hueva", which are used very specifically as an insult towards someone who is so naive that lets someone else take advantage of him or her; everybody is taught to "no dar papaya"; to not give anyone else the opportunity to take advantage out of you. (to give an example: once I got robbed in full daylight near a main avenue people sympathized with me; another time it was at night and in a "unsafe" place people said "well duh what did you expect") Although I see how those cultural paradigms are wrong, I have yet to fully form some more suitable ones, and that is why this discussion interests me. Right now I believe there must be some balance; and even though victims should, in the end, not be blamed, I also believe that people should take reasonable steps to avoid becoming a victim themselves.

I think most people already do take precautions. I am sure that you were taking precautions when you were robbed, it's culturally ingrained to do so as you said, but such precautions did not of course stop the robbery. Just like most women their entire lives are taught to take precautions in regards to rape, and they almost always do, even if unconsciously, it's been that culturally ingrained in them. I was taking precautions when I was raped, that did not stop it from happening.

That's why I think the precautions argument is moot point - almost all of us do take precautions and it's been ingrained in us to do so. And since most of us already are, it's certainly not stalling or stopping many. Which leads many to say "take more precautions" - certainly in my cause, there aren't any more legal precautions I could have taken (pepper spray, knives and guns all being illegal here). So even with them, there is a limit.

Not really what she's saying. She even agreed that there is a time and place for talking about taking precautions.

I'm a bit divided on this issue. Actually, that sort of implies that I think both sides are wrong when really I think they're both right (to a degree).

However unjust it may be that people should have to adjust their behavior in order to avoid rape, the fact remains that rapists exist. And there are things a person can do that will reduce their chances of becoming a victim. So, until rape ceases to be a thing, a person learning how to avoid it as best they can is important. I reject the idea that attempting to instill caution equals victim-blaming.

That said, in the aftermath of an actual rape, focusing on what the victim could have done differently is the height of insensitivity. Never mind the fact that a very large percentage of the things people focus on, what the victim was wearing etc. have nothing to do with increasing or decreasing the possibility of being raped.

But, even though I think caution, and avoidance of situations in which rape is more likely, has its place, it does not address the root problem. That being, as I mentioned earlier, that rapists exist. Caution and avoidance of risky situations, though extremely useful, are not enough. Not nearly. Attitudes toward rape must change.

First, by creating an environment in which rape victims feel more comfortable with coming forward about their experiences. Like I said earlier, teaching caution has its place, but if a rape victim feels they will be confronted by what others perceive as mistakes or errors in judgement, then they are less likely to report the rape in the first place. Creating this more supportive environment will increase the likelihood of charges being pressed which will, hopefully, convince the offenders that the risk of being caught makes the act not worthwhile. If that is not enough it will, at least, increase the likelihood that the person will be caught and imprisoned before they can reoffend (which, from what I understand, a very very high percentage do).

Second, we need to underscore the seriousness of rape and emphasize the importance of consent. Many rapists seem to genuinely not understand the wrongness of their actions. There are some truly evil people out there who will knowingly violate others for their own pleasure, people for whom an increased risk of apprehension and punishment is the only way to keep them in check (and, sadly, some for whom even that is not enough). But there are also many who seem to not understand the ramifications of their actions. People who would never commit what they believe to be rape yet, at the same time, will take intoxication as implied consent, or will feel themselves entitled to sex (even by coercion or force) from their romantic partners, or who believe, for any of a thousand other reasons, that what they are doing is justified. In short, people who do not seem to understand that their actions do constitute rape, and do have intense mental emotional and physical consequences for the victim.

If people were consistently taught exactly what constitutes rape, and ingrained with the idea that they are, under no circumstances, entitled to sex with anyone, I think that would go a long way toward reducing instances of it.

However, societywide changes in attitude like that take a long time to put into effect. Years, decades, entire generations. And even then there are those who will never get it, evil or sociopathic monsters who are beyond being taught right from wrong, who have no place in a civilized society (or even an uncivilized one), and learning how to avoid and protect onesself from that type will always be of value.

Last edited by mds_02 on 18 Apr 2013, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.