Are you anti-government?

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Kraichgauer
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08 Jul 2013, 10:44 pm

nominalist wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think that's happening on the Bizarro planet, where everyone is either a freakish Superman or Lois Lane, garbage men drop trash on the street, police men commit crimes, etc.

It is on the planet called: Right Wing Echo Chamber (located in a distant galaxy).

I'm seriously starting to think so.

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Kraichgauer
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08 Jul 2013, 10:47 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

/\ I think it's the left that wants a one world government, hence their love of the UN.
Conservatives are for independence and national identity.

I don't have a dog in this fight (one world government), but any student of history can tell you how the push for national identity (tribalism) has been the cause of plenty of bloodshed.
And national identities can and do change all the time. Until the 20th century, there were no Israelis or Palestinians. The Franks of late antiquity are now the citizens of at least four different countries - Germany, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands - and the Frankish descendants in these countries until recently couldn't stand each other. If nations didn't change and disappear over time, there would still be Bell Beaker Folk, and Battle Axe People.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

As long as this planet is inhabited by humans there will be bloodshed. Even if there are only two people left on earth the potential for conflict and bloodshed will be ever present. The only hope of avoiding war is to be prepared for it and even there is not a guaranty.

Sure, especially when you've got the "us against them" mentality, that comes from tribalism and nationalism.

Put 25 people, give or take, together long enough and they will form groups and that is the base of tribalism and/or nationalism. As much as the left would like to think otherwise, human nature is what it is.

nominalist wrote:

Raptor wrote:

/\ I think it's the left that wants a one world government, hence their love of the UN.
Conservatives are for independence and national identity.

Factually, that is incorrect. Most people on the left and the right do not want a world government. However, supporters of world government can be found on both the left and the right. Of course, my vision of world socialism would not be accepted by right-wingers (or by liberals for that matter).

It’s correct enough in my observations.

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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08 Jul 2013, 11:31 pm

Put a group of people on an island together and it'll be Lord of the Flies in no time.I guess I have a negative view.I wish human nature was not what it is.

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Kraichgauer
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09 Jul 2013, 12:26 am

Misslizard wrote:

Put a group of people on an island together and it'll be Lord of the Flies in no time.I guess I have a negative view.I wish human nature was not what it is.

I'm a Lutheran, so you can bet I've had the negative view of human nature drummed into me for my entire life. That, and that despite that it being our nature to do bad things, it's still no excuse and hardly right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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09 Jul 2013, 12:45 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

Put a group of people on an island together and it'll be Lord of the Flies in no time.I guess I have a negative view.I wish human nature was not what it is.

True,but there is always a troublemaker.The Loki effect.

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09 Jul 2013, 1:39 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRQUtH9yU5g[/youtube]

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Kraichgauer
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09 Jul 2013, 2:04 am

Misslizard wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

Put a group of people on an island together and it'll be Lord of the Flies in no time.I guess I have a negative view.I wish human nature was not what it is.

True,but there is always a troublemaker.The Loki effect.

Or in the Christian tradition, Satan. But leave it to us Lutherans - we don't let us humans off the hook even with the devil, as we see ourselves as willing collaborators. I suppose that's why modern day Germans (who tend to be Lutherans) still beat themselves up over the Holocaust.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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09 Jul 2013, 8:31 am

Human nature being what it is, we need to minimise the power anyone holds over anyone else. That means we need to minimise government, not bring in some one world system. Always remember, governments are made of humans just as fallible as everyone else. It's just their mistakes won't be limited to themselves.

Just look at all the worst atrocities in history, and you'll find a government behind each of them. The "cultural revolution". Year zero. Stalinist purges. The trail of tears. Dammit, it was governments that invented total war! If there had never been a strong government there, if no-one had threatened force against all who protested, none of these things could have been possible. If the government hadn't been able to forcibly collect wealth to fund these operations...

...and what good has government done? The big vaccination projects are funded privately; if only the government did not take so much, there would be more available for them. The world wide web is a do-ocracy, run by the people who run it. The railways in the UK were built privately, before the government in their mighty wisdom decided to nationalise them. There is no good that a government has provided, save perhaps for defence against other such governments, that cannot be - has not, at some point, been - provided better privately.

Governments excel at destroying and getting in the way of people who want to fix things.

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09 Jul 2013, 9:35 am

Magneto wrote:

Governments excel at destroying and getting in the way of people who want to fix things.

Geo. Washington once said that government is like fire. A useful servant and a dreadful master. Tom Paine characterized government as a necessary evil that exists because some men are wicked.

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09 Jul 2013, 12:16 pm

nominalist wrote:

Observations of what sources?

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

No one said it was a good thing or the right thing. What I said is that it’s human nature to form separate and potentially rival groups. How do you propose that hard wiring be globally defeated effectively? I’ll answer for you; it can’t be done and world peace is un-attainable and always will be. All the well-whishing and kum by ya singing in the world won’t change that.

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09 Jul 2013, 12:45 pm

Raptor wrote:

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

That is not a source. It is a personal opinion. Factually, most progressives (a more accurate term than "liberals") have no desire to dissolve national sovereignty. However, progressives do tend to support a more equitable distribution of wealth than economic liberals (who are commonly called, these days, "conservatives"). Also, factually, most people (both progressive and conservative) would prefer peace over war.

The left is an entirely different issue. My views are only superficially similar to most progressives on the majority of issues.

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Kraichgauer
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09 Jul 2013, 1:32 pm

Magneto wrote:

Governments of the liberal democratic variety have ensured civil rights. Persecution and discrimination of unpopular minorities (blacks, gays, etc.) is more often than not caused by the the local majority, while responsible governments redress those wrongs. Seems there's still good use for the right kinds of governments.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Kraichgauer
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09 Jul 2013, 1:37 pm

Raptor wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Observations of what sources?

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

Fighting for the virtues and values of human brotherhood over tribalism and division might be an unwinnable battle, but the fight is still worth the effort.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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09 Jul 2013, 2:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Observations of what sources?

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

Fighting for the virtues and values of human brotherhood over tribalism and division might be an unwinnable battle, but the fight is still worth the effort.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The effort would be better spent preparing your tribe/nation for eventual war. Effort spent on an un-attainable goal is still effort wasted, regardless of the nobility of the goal.

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Kraichgauer
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09 Jul 2013, 2:48 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Observations of what sources?

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

Fighting for the virtues and values of human brotherhood over tribalism and division might be an unwinnable battle, but the fight is still worth the effort.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The effort would be better spent preparing your tribe/nation for eventual war. Effort spent on an un-attainable goal is still effort wasted, regardless of the nobility of the goal.

So everyone From Jesus Christ, to Gandhi, to Martin Luther King Jr were wasting there time?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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09 Jul 2013, 2:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Observations of what sources?

The liberal craving for peace, dissolving of national sovereignty, distribution of wealth, etc…
I don’t have a study or survey handy and I’m not going to go looking for one.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if human nature is what it is in dividing against other humans, it doesn't make it a good thing.

Fighting for the virtues and values of human brotherhood over tribalism and division might be an unwinnable battle, but the fight is still worth the effort.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The effort would be better spent preparing your tribe/nation for eventual war. Effort spent on an un-attainable goal is still effort wasted, regardless of the nobility of the goal.

So everyone From Jesus Christ, to Gandhi, to Martin Luther King Jr were wasting there time?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The above individuals made progress in the advancement of human unity but the tribe culture still prevails and will continue to prevail which is what you seem to be against.
BTW; you cannot hold a candle to them because you spend too much time arguing with me.

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