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Kraichgauer
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04 Dec 2016, 6:00 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Soldiers didn't have the right, but still might have done. Yes, but was this in the earlier years? Things started to fall apart towards the end. The "Holocaust" isn't a single event. The phrase wasn't even used until the 1970's. I'm not denying the bloodshed and suffering, just the way it's been used to cause suffering to others and to blackmail Swiss banks is terrible. They worked out to move all Jews into concetration camps. Remember not all of the camps were extermination camps as a whole. Hitler had also said that he'd deal with the Jewish problem after the war so this seems to contradict that he was planning her to kill all Jews. Things aren't as black and white as they seem, something deniers especially cannot fathom.


Sure, the Holocaust wasn't a single event - it was different phases of exterminating those the Nazis deemed less than human, and not worthy to live.
And no, not every camp was technically a death camp. But still, huge numbers of prisoners were either starved to death, worked to death, died from physical mistreatment, died from lack of proper medical care, were murdered for this or that reason, etc.
Hitler may have originally said he'd take care of the Jewish question after the war, but because he was losing toward the end, he put the Final Solution into high gear, determined if he was going to go, he'd take them all with him. But even so, that still wouldn't stop Hitler from instigating acts of mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen (special action squads) against Jews, communists, Gypsies, and others. Incidentally, the gas chambers were devised because too many Einsatzgruppen members were psychologically unable to carry on after killing defenseless people, including children. It was a kindness extended to the killers, not the victims.


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JohnPowell
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04 Dec 2016, 7:00 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Soldiers didn't have the right, but still might have done. Yes, but was this in the earlier years? Things started to fall apart towards the end. The "Holocaust" isn't a single event. The phrase wasn't even used until the 1970's. I'm not denying the bloodshed and suffering, just the way it's been used to cause suffering to others and to blackmail Swiss banks is terrible. They worked out to move all Jews into concetration camps. Remember not all of the camps were extermination camps as a whole. Hitler had also said that he'd deal with the Jewish problem after the war so this seems to contradict that he was planning her to kill all Jews. Things aren't as black and white as they seem, something deniers especially cannot fathom.


Sure, the Holocaust wasn't a single event - it was different phases of exterminating those the Nazis deemed less than human, and not worthy to live.
And no, not every camp was technically a death camp. But still, huge numbers of prisoners were either starved to death, worked to death, died from physical mistreatment, died from lack of proper medical care, were murdered for this or that reason, etc.
Hitler may have originally said he'd take care of the Jewish question after the war, but because he was losing toward the end, he put the Final Solution into high gear, determined if he was going to go, he'd take them all with him. But even so, that still wouldn't stop Hitler from instigating acts of mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen (special action squads) against Jews, communists, Gypsies, and others. Incidentally, the gas chambers were devised because too many Einsatzgruppen members were psychologically unable to carry on after killing defenseless people, including children. It was a kindness extended to the killers, not the victims.


I don't see why there has to be a name for it. The UK and the US is willingly exterminating people in Yemen now with their sales of weapons to the Saudis and their support for the regime. But cretins like Theresa May say things like mass murder shouldn't get in the way of trade deals.
It was actually towards the end of the war when Germany were in trouble, and Hitler wanted to focus on winning the war where as some of the generals were more interested in killing Jews. Lots of people also died of starvation and were in such bad shape towards the end of the war after the allies had bombed everything in site.


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04 Dec 2016, 7:03 pm

The worst thing for me is the way our media etc makes out that our sickening crimes were for the greater good. WWII wasn't good vs evil, it was a bunch of corrupt monsters fighting each other and being made to fight each other in a mixture of a pi'**ing contest and power grabs. The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.


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Kraichgauer
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04 Dec 2016, 9:15 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Soldiers didn't have the right, but still might have done. Yes, but was this in the earlier years? Things started to fall apart towards the end. The "Holocaust" isn't a single event. The phrase wasn't even used until the 1970's. I'm not denying the bloodshed and suffering, just the way it's been used to cause suffering to others and to blackmail Swiss banks is terrible. They worked out to move all Jews into concetration camps. Remember not all of the camps were extermination camps as a whole. Hitler had also said that he'd deal with the Jewish problem after the war so this seems to contradict that he was planning her to kill all Jews. Things aren't as black and white as they seem, something deniers especially cannot fathom.


Sure, the Holocaust wasn't a single event - it was different phases of exterminating those the Nazis deemed less than human, and not worthy to live.
And no, not every camp was technically a death camp. But still, huge numbers of prisoners were either starved to death, worked to death, died from physical mistreatment, died from lack of proper medical care, were murdered for this or that reason, etc.
Hitler may have originally said he'd take care of the Jewish question after the war, but because he was losing toward the end, he put the Final Solution into high gear, determined if he was going to go, he'd take them all with him. But even so, that still wouldn't stop Hitler from instigating acts of mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen (special action squads) against Jews, communists, Gypsies, and others. Incidentally, the gas chambers were devised because too many Einsatzgruppen members were psychologically unable to carry on after killing defenseless people, including children. It was a kindness extended to the killers, not the victims.


I don't see why there has to be a name for it. The UK and the US is willingly exterminating people in Yemen now with their sales of weapons to the Saudis and their support for the regime. But cretins like Theresa May say things like mass murder shouldn't get in the way of trade deals.
It was actually towards the end of the war when Germany were in trouble, and Hitler wanted to focus on winning the war where as some of the generals were more interested in killing Jews. Lots of people also died of starvation and were in such bad shape towards the end of the war after the allies had bombed everything in site.


It was the SS and Nazi hierarchy responsible for the Holocaust, not the generals, some of whom joined in the failed plot to kill Hitler.
As for the war being between corrupt monsters on both sides - while Stalin was the greatest monster of all in WWII, I'd say the Nazis, fascists, and Japanese imperialists were on par with him in a way that Roosevelt and Churchill were not. Sure, FDR and Churchill were hardly perfect human beings: Roosevelt had the Japanese internment and the turning away of Jewish refugees as a black mark against him, while Gandhi's greatest adversary for the liberty of his country was none other than Winston Churchill. Still, free government in today's western world owes it's survival to an Allied victory.


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04 Dec 2016, 9:24 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...



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04 Dec 2016, 10:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...

I think we can conclude that taking North America would have been a bridge too far for the Axis. Even if it laid availible to them it would have been a logistical nightmare and even the citizens would fight back tooth and nail every step of the way.


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05 Dec 2016, 1:37 am

Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...

I think we can conclude that taking North America would have been a bridge too far for the Axis. Even if it laid availible to them it would have been a logistical nightmare and even the citizens would fight back tooth and nail every step of the way.

Well you got to hand it to Churchill and Roosevelt, they certainly saved out collective skins...



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05 Dec 2016, 7:51 am

I think the main reason why we don't talk about Stalin nearly as much as Hitler is because we would've lost World War II without him. Stalin and Hitler were both very, very bad people, but Stalin technically had a higher body count. There were no "good guys" in WWII; either you were with Hitler, or with Stalin.


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08 Dec 2016, 3:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Soldiers didn't have the right, but still might have done. Yes, but was this in the earlier years? Things started to fall apart towards the end. The "Holocaust" isn't a single event. The phrase wasn't even used until the 1970's. I'm not denying the bloodshed and suffering, just the way it's been used to cause suffering to others and to blackmail Swiss banks is terrible. They worked out to move all Jews into concetration camps. Remember not all of the camps were extermination camps as a whole. Hitler had also said that he'd deal with the Jewish problem after the war so this seems to contradict that he was planning her to kill all Jews. Things aren't as black and white as they seem, something deniers especially cannot fathom.


Sure, the Holocaust wasn't a single event - it was different phases of exterminating those the Nazis deemed less than human, and not worthy to live.
And no, not every camp was technically a death camp. But still, huge numbers of prisoners were either starved to death, worked to death, died from physical mistreatment, died from lack of proper medical care, were murdered for this or that reason, etc.
Hitler may have originally said he'd take care of the Jewish question after the war, but because he was losing toward the end, he put the Final Solution into high gear, determined if he was going to go, he'd take them all with him. But even so, that still wouldn't stop Hitler from instigating acts of mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen (special action squads) against Jews, communists, Gypsies, and others. Incidentally, the gas chambers were devised because too many Einsatzgruppen members were psychologically unable to carry on after killing defenseless people, including children. It was a kindness extended to the killers, not the victims.


I don't see why there has to be a name for it. The UK and the US is willingly exterminating people in Yemen now with their sales of weapons to the Saudis and their support for the regime. But cretins like Theresa May say things like mass murder shouldn't get in the way of trade deals.
It was actually towards the end of the war when Germany were in trouble, and Hitler wanted to focus on winning the war where as some of the generals were more interested in killing Jews. Lots of people also died of starvation and were in such bad shape towards the end of the war after the allies had bombed everything in site.


It was the SS and Nazi hierarchy responsible for the Holocaust, not the generals, some of whom joined in the failed plot to kill Hitler.
As for the war being between corrupt monsters on both sides - while Stalin was the greatest monster of all in WWII, I'd say the Nazis, fascists, and Japanese imperialists were on par with him in a way that Roosevelt and Churchill were not. Sure, FDR and Churchill were hardly perfect human beings: Roosevelt had the Japanese internment and the turning away of Jewish refugees as a black mark against him, while Gandhi's greatest adversary for the liberty of his country was none other than Winston Churchill. Still, free government in today's western world owes it's survival to an Allied victory.



Not all of the generals wanted to kill Hitler. Some would have been responsible for killing people...
The US were the worst i'd say, nuking civilians was the worst act of WWII if it's a pissing contest. At the start they went straight into North Africa to support a neo-Nazi and then with Italy after the resistance had won they told them to get lost and reinstalled a fascist. The British bombing of Dresden was very sick too. We don't have a free government, they are controlled by corporations, bankers and the arms industry, just like we were in both world wars.


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08 Dec 2016, 4:01 pm

cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...


Where's the evidence that we'd all be speaking German? People are already getting locked up for what they've said on the internet. Not to mention historians being put in solitary confinement for 400 days for writing a book.


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08 Dec 2016, 4:06 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...

I think we can conclude that taking North America would have been a bridge too far for the Axis. Even if it laid availible to them it would have been a logistical nightmare and even the citizens would fight back tooth and nail every step of the way.

Well you got to hand it to Churchill and Roosevelt, they certainly saved out collective skins...


No they didn't. They did the opposite. They dragged us into wars we shouldn't have entered.


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08 Dec 2016, 6:13 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Soldiers didn't have the right, but still might have done. Yes, but was this in the earlier years? Things started to fall apart towards the end. The "Holocaust" isn't a single event. The phrase wasn't even used until the 1970's. I'm not denying the bloodshed and suffering, just the way it's been used to cause suffering to others and to blackmail Swiss banks is terrible. They worked out to move all Jews into concetration camps. Remember not all of the camps were extermination camps as a whole. Hitler had also said that he'd deal with the Jewish problem after the war so this seems to contradict that he was planning her to kill all Jews. Things aren't as black and white as they seem, something deniers especially cannot fathom.


Sure, the Holocaust wasn't a single event - it was different phases of exterminating those the Nazis deemed less than human, and not worthy to live.
And no, not every camp was technically a death camp. But still, huge numbers of prisoners were either starved to death, worked to death, died from physical mistreatment, died from lack of proper medical care, were murdered for this or that reason, etc.
Hitler may have originally said he'd take care of the Jewish question after the war, but because he was losing toward the end, he put the Final Solution into high gear, determined if he was going to go, he'd take them all with him. But even so, that still wouldn't stop Hitler from instigating acts of mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen (special action squads) against Jews, communists, Gypsies, and others. Incidentally, the gas chambers were devised because too many Einsatzgruppen members were psychologically unable to carry on after killing defenseless people, including children. It was a kindness extended to the killers, not the victims.


I don't see why there has to be a name for it. The UK and the US is willingly exterminating people in Yemen now with their sales of weapons to the Saudis and their support for the regime. But cretins like Theresa May say things like mass murder shouldn't get in the way of trade deals.
It was actually towards the end of the war when Germany were in trouble, and Hitler wanted to focus on winning the war where as some of the generals were more interested in killing Jews. Lots of people also died of starvation and were in such bad shape towards the end of the war after the allies had bombed everything in site.


It was the SS and Nazi hierarchy responsible for the Holocaust, not the generals, some of whom joined in the failed plot to kill Hitler.
As for the war being between corrupt monsters on both sides - while Stalin was the greatest monster of all in WWII, I'd say the Nazis, fascists, and Japanese imperialists were on par with him in a way that Roosevelt and Churchill were not. Sure, FDR and Churchill were hardly perfect human beings: Roosevelt had the Japanese internment and the turning away of Jewish refugees as a black mark against him, while Gandhi's greatest adversary for the liberty of his country was none other than Winston Churchill. Still, free government in today's western world owes it's survival to an Allied victory.



Not all of the generals wanted to kill Hitler. Some would have been responsible for killing people...
The US were the worst i'd say, nuking civilians was the worst act of WWII if it's a pissing contest. At the start they went straight into North Africa to support a neo-Nazi and then with Italy after the resistance had won they told them to get lost and reinstalled a fascist. The British bombing of Dresden was very sick too. We don't have a free government, they are controlled by corporations, bankers and the arms industry, just like we were in both world wars.


Yes, a great many Wehrmacht generals were loyal to the Nazis, while all were at the very least loyal to their country. Some of the latter understood that loyalty as meaning that Hitler had to be eliminated for the good of their country, and all the world.
The atomic bombing of Japan is still a controversial subject. One of the best arguments for is that an Allied invasion of the Japanese homeland would have cost literally millions of Japanese civilian lives, and perhaps tens of thousands of Allied lives.
The bombing of Dresden was an indefensible war crime on the Allies part. Hardly our finest hour.


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08 Dec 2016, 6:59 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...


Where's the evidence that we'd all be speaking German? People are already getting locked up for what they've said on the internet. Not to mention historians being put in solitary confinement for 400 days for writing a book.


People are locked up for posting secret intelligence on the internet (I'm assuming you are referring to Snowden and Asssange)

Historians? are you talking about Nazi holocaust deniers?



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08 Dec 2016, 7:05 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The people of each country were the ones who were made to suffer while some people profited from it.

I'm assuming the reason we aren't "sprechen sie duetche" and living in internment camps for talking freely on the internet is because the allies won the war...

I think we can conclude that taking North America would have been a bridge too far for the Axis. Even if it laid availible to them it would have been a logistical nightmare and even the citizens would fight back tooth and nail every step of the way.

Well you got to hand it to Churchill and Roosevelt, they certainly saved out collective skins...


No they didn't. They did the opposite. They dragged us into wars we shouldn't have entered.


Not a student of history? England and France had no choice, they had an alliance with Poland. In any case there was no telling where the nutcases running the Nazis would draw the line (quite literally) on "lebensraum"...



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08 Dec 2016, 10:02 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Ironic that all the left wing media's crying answers nothing and a spoof reporter basically nails it!



By Jove, he's got it! Britain had its Brexit moment and here in the U.S.A. we have our Trump moment.

I voted for the Donald as a way of thrashing the Democrat liberals. These creatures of the left have been letting the middle class go to hell and they have betrayed the workers. Trump was my handy cat of nine-tails for whipping the liberal Democrats bloody.

If Bernie had run I would have voted for him in a micro-second and I am not a socialist. I would have voted for him because (1) he is a human being and (2) he has some insight into what is ailing this country.

Hillary is just another looser pursuing power. She got what she deserved, a loss.


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08 Dec 2016, 11:17 pm

BaalChatzaf wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Ironic that all the left wing media's crying answers nothing and a spoof reporter basically nails it!



By Jove, he's got it! Britain had its Brexit moment and here in the U.S.A. we have our Trump moment.

I voted for the Donald as a way of thrashing the Democrat liberals. These creatures of the left have been letting the middle class go to hell and they have betrayed the workers. Trump was my handy cat of nine-tails for whipping the liberal Democrats bloody.

If Bernie had run I would have voted for him in a micro-second and I am not a socialist. I would have voted for him because (1) he is a human being and (2) he has some insight into what is ailing this country.

Hillary is just another looser pursuing power. She got what she deserved, a loss.


So Trump is the Scourge of God, like Atilla. Donald the Hun! :lol:


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