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Donald Trump is not a Bigot or Racist..

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Shahunshah
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07 Jan 2017, 6:56 pm

feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:

You say blatantly that he denigrates women and makes fun of disabilities, well I say you are kind of pulling that out of context. He said much of what he did as a joke...


Really?
Have you ever been teased because you were autistic?

You have to realise the context.

They were just making a joke, so you were being too sensitive and should have just laughed along with them.
I am not condoning what he said. But that is not a reason to label his core beliefs as being ableist or racist.


If you use ableist and racist language to bully people, then you are being ableist and racist. It doesn't matter if you don't feel like you actively hate those people, bullying them by using ableist and racist language is ableist and racist behaviour.
But what about his intentions and how he thinks him lashing against the disabled reporter might have been as a joke not because of innate hatred. The point I am trying to make is that just because Trump makes offensive jokes doesn't mean he has terrible deplorable views. His appointment of African Americans shows he is comfortable with them close to him.

The definition of being racist is someone who genuinely believes in their own racial superiority the point I am trying to make is he may not be racist only careless with humour.


So it is an unconscius lack of empathy and understanding about how his words will affect both his followers and the people who are the butt of his jokes?

That sounds so much better.

I never said Trump was perfect but at least he didn't label voters as deplorable.



feral botanist
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07 Jan 2017, 6:56 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
You say blatantly that he denigrates women and makes fun of disabilities, well I say you are kind of pulling that out of context. He said much of what he did as a joke...

Really? Have you ever been teased because you were autistic? You have to realise the context. They were just making a joke, so you were being too sensitive and should have just laughed along with them.
I am not condoning what he said. But that is not a reason to label his core beliefs as being ableist or racist.

I agree with this----I feel it goes-along-with what I was saying before (that PE Trump isn't the most wise, but I'm not one to throw-out the baby with the bathwater).
Thanks. To be honest saying Trump is racist is kind of like saying Mitt Romney or Joe Biden is sexist. Just because the two have made unfortunate gaffes and have been careless does not mean that they are sexist in fact much about their characters reject that notion.


false equivalent



Shahunshah
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07 Jan 2017, 6:57 pm

feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
You say blatantly that he denigrates women and makes fun of disabilities, well I say you are kind of pulling that out of context. He said much of what he did as a joke...

Really? Have you ever been teased because you were autistic? You have to realise the context. They were just making a joke, so you were being too sensitive and should have just laughed along with them.
I am not condoning what he said. But that is not a reason to label his core beliefs as being ableist or racist.

I agree with this----I feel it goes-along-with what I was saying before (that PE Trump isn't the most wise, but I'm not one to throw-out the baby with the bathwater).
Thanks. To be honest saying Trump is racist is kind of like saying Mitt Romney or Joe Biden is sexist. Just because the two have made unfortunate gaffes and have been careless does not mean that they are sexist in fact much about their characters reject that notion.


false equivalent
Why?

Yeah, maybe with Romney not sure about Biden. He probably lacked a bit of understanding similar to Trump to think he could touch women the way he did.



Last edited by Shahunshah on 07 Jan 2017, 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Campin_Cat
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07 Jan 2017, 6:59 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
...the point I am trying to make is he may not be racist only careless with humour.

Yep----I don't think HE is one to throw-out the baby with the bathwater, EITHER.



feral botanist
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07 Jan 2017, 7:03 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
You say blatantly that he denigrates women and makes fun of disabilities, well I say you are kind of pulling that out of context. He said much of what he did as a joke...

Really? Have you ever been teased because you were autistic? You have to realise the context. They were just making a joke, so you were being too sensitive and should have just laughed along with them.
I am not condoning what he said. But that is not a reason to label his core beliefs as being ableist or racist.

I agree with this----I feel it goes-along-with what I was saying before (that PE Trump isn't the most wise, but I'm not one to throw-out the baby with the bathwater).
Thanks. To be honest saying Trump is racist is kind of like saying Mitt Romney or Joe Biden is sexist. Just because the two have made unfortunate gaffes and have been careless does not mean that they are sexist in fact much about their characters reject that notion.


false equivalent
Why?

Yeah, maybe with Romney not sure about Biden.



There is video of trump intentionally denigrating women, minorities and the disabled.



Alliekit
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07 Jan 2017, 7:06 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Alliekit wrote:
But just because I cannot read you mind.....

You didn't have to read my mind, it was THERE!!


Without tone it is easy to misinterpret I admitted that. Still doens't change the fact you were patronising



LoveNotHate
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07 Jan 2017, 7:07 pm

As a property owner, he likely dreaded blacks moving into any areas he owned.

So, he is likely pragmatically racist, not hatefully racist.



Alliekit
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07 Jan 2017, 7:09 pm

feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:

You say blatantly that he denigrates women and makes fun of disabilities, well I say you are kind of pulling that out of context. He said much of what he did as a joke...


Really?
Have you ever been teased because you were autistic?

You have to realise the context.

They were just making a joke, so you were being too sensitive and should have just laughed along with them.
I am not condoning what he said. But that is not a reason to label his core beliefs as being ableist or racist.


If you use ableist and racist language to bully people, then you are being ableist and racist. It doesn't matter if you don't feel like you actively hate those people, bullying them by using ableist and racist language is ableist and racist behaviour.
But what about his intentions and how he thinks him lashing against the disabled reporter might have been as a joke not because of innate hatred. The point I am trying to make is that just because Trump makes offensive jokes doesn't mean he has terrible deplorable views. His appointment of African Americans shows he is comfortable with them close to him.

The definition of being racist is someone who genuinely believes in their own racial superiority the point I am trying to make is he may not be racist only careless with humour.


So it is an unconscius lack of empathy and understanding about how his words will affect both his followers and the people who are the butt of his jokes?

That sounds so much better.


I have to agree with this. He is in a position of authority, someone with so much power being 'careless' in any way is worrying.

One careless joke to a foreign nation and you could start a war



wilburforce
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07 Jan 2017, 7:10 pm

When men (or women, because women contribute to it too) are being sexist towards me, when they say or do something sexist to me that makes my life harder and more stressful, I don't really care if they actively hate women or not--I only care that they are being sexist to me and making my life harder. Their intentions don't matter to me, the impact of their actions on me is what matters to me. You can not actively hate women and still contribute to sexism and making women's lives harder.

If you're bullying me because you hate me or bullying me because you think it's amusing, either way you are bullying me and I want it to stop. One's intentions matter less than the consequences of one's actions. This is a reality that everyone has to deal with if they are not a sociopath completely lacking empathy: whatever your intentions, your actions towards others have consequences, and dealing with and being responsible for those consequences is called being an adult.


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RetroGamer87
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07 Jan 2017, 7:17 pm

This is the most entertaining flamewar I've read in ages! :D


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Shahunshah
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07 Jan 2017, 7:18 pm

wilburforce wrote:
When men (or women, because women contribute to it too) are being sexist towards me, when they say or do something sexist to me that makes my life harder and more stressful, I don't really care if they actively hate women or not--I only care that they are being sexist to me and making my life harder. Their intentions don't matter to me, the impact of their actions on me is what matters to me. You can not actively hate women and still contribute to sexism and making women's lives harder.

If you're bullying me because you hate me or bullying me because you think it's amusing, either way you are bullying me and I want it to stop. One's intentions matter less than the consequences of one's actions. This is a reality that everyone has to deal with if they are not a sociopath completely lacking empathy: whatever your intentions, your actions towards others have consequences, and dealing with and being responsible for those consequences is called being an adult.
No one denying Trump's idiocy. But sexist is a strong word to through towards someone. I think all of your grievances are legitimate and I certainly don't like Trump.

But the thing I think intent defines a person's thinking not actions. Intentions define what the person ultimately wants to do. Actions are just the result of it.

I personally like it that people like you are not afraid to bash Trump. I think we need people like you to show that those kinds of behaviours are bad.



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07 Jan 2017, 7:24 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
This is the most entertaining flamewar I've read in ages! :D

Thanks----we'll be here, 'til Thursday----I recommend the shrimp cocktail!! LOL



wilburforce
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07 Jan 2017, 7:26 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
When men (or women, because women contribute to it too) are being sexist towards me, when they say or do something sexist to me that makes my life harder and more stressful, I don't really care if they actively hate women or not--I only care that they are being sexist to me and making my life harder. Their intentions don't matter to me, the impact of their actions on me is what matters to me. You can not actively hate women and still contribute to sexism and making women's lives harder.

If you're bullying me because you hate me or bullying me because you think it's amusing, either way you are bullying me and I want it to stop. One's intentions matter less than the consequences of one's actions. This is a reality that everyone has to deal with if they are not a sociopath completely lacking empathy: whatever your intentions, your actions towards others have consequences, and dealing with and being responsible for those consequences is called being an adult.
No one denying Trump's idiocy. But sexist is a strong word to through towards someone. I think all of your grievances are legitimate and I certainly don't like Trump.

But the thing I think intent defines a person's thinking not actions. Intentions define what the person ultimately wants to do. Actions are just the result of it.

I personally like it that people like you are not afraid to bash Trump. I think we need people like you to show that those kinds of behaviours are bad.


My point is that even if you don't believe sexist things, if you behave in a sexist way towards people then you might as well have those beliefs because the end result is the same for the people whom you behave in a sexist way towards. I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp.

Say you are a manager and you make your workplace toxic by making racist jokes all the time--maybe you don't actually believe your race is superior to others, you just find racist jokes funny because they are taboo. If you have people of other races in your workplace, they are going to experience more stress and less productivity because of the racist jokes, even though you don't actually think you are better than them. They are still going to feel unwelcome in the workplace, and possibly afraid of their coworkers who laugh along with the racist jokes. The result (toxic environment) is the same for other people whatever your intentions are when your behaviour is racist.

Intention matters very little in regards to actions and their impact on others. This is something you need to grasp when you go out in the world and you interact with others--your intentions might matter a lot to you, but they don't matter much to everyone else, it's your behaviour and its consequences that matter and that is how life works.


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07 Jan 2017, 7:27 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
As a property owner, he likely dreaded blacks moving into any areas he owned.

So, he is likely pragmatically racist, not hatefully racist.


No, that's racist to assume all blacks would damage his properties, while assuming all whites would not.
The policy was adopted from his father, Fred Trump, who was renowned as a racist and KKK member.


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Shahunshah
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07 Jan 2017, 7:32 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
When men (or women, because women contribute to it too) are being sexist towards me, when they say or do something sexist to me that makes my life harder and more stressful, I don't really care if they actively hate women or not--I only care that they are being sexist to me and making my life harder. Their intentions don't matter to me, the impact of their actions on me is what matters to me. You can not actively hate women and still contribute to sexism and making women's lives harder.

If you're bullying me because you hate me or bullying me because you think it's amusing, either way you are bullying me and I want it to stop. One's intentions matter less than the consequences of one's actions. This is a reality that everyone has to deal with if they are not a sociopath completely lacking empathy: whatever your intentions, your actions towards others have consequences, and dealing with and being responsible for those consequences is called being an adult.
No one denying Trump's idiocy. But sexist is a strong word to through towards someone. I think all of your grievances are legitimate and I certainly don't like Trump.

But the thing I think intent defines a person's thinking not actions. Intentions define what the person ultimately wants to do. Actions are just the result of it.

I personally like it that people like you are not afraid to bash Trump. I think we need people like you to show that those kinds of behaviours are bad.


My point is that even if you don't believe sexist things, if you behave in a sexist way towards people then you might as well have those beliefs because the end result is the same for the people whom you behave in a sexist way towards. I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp.

Say you are a manager and you make your workplace toxic by making racist jokes all the time--maybe you don't actually believe your race is superior to others, you just find racist jokes funny because they are taboo. If you have people of other races in your workplace, they are going to experience more stress and less productivity because of the racist jokes, even though you don't actually think you are better than them. They are still going to feel unwelcome in the workplace, and possibly afraid of their coworkers who laugh along with the racist jokes. The result (toxic environment) is the same for other people whatever your intentions are when your behaviour is racist.

Intention matters very little in regards to actions and their impact on others. This is something you need to grasp when you go out in the world and you interact with others--your intentions might matter a lot to you, but they don't matter much to everyone else, it's your behaviour and its consequences that matter and that is how life works.
I agree with most of what you say. But I just don't think we should throw around the word racist lightly. Its like saying someone is a terrible person when in actual fact they may just be careless.

That's why we need people like you to point out these things. But if we use racist as a word to throw around to those people we risk mislabelling and condemning those who just lacked a bit of self awareness.



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07 Jan 2017, 7:49 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
When men (or women, because women contribute to it too) are being sexist towards me, when they say or do something sexist to me that makes my life harder and more stressful, I don't really care if they actively hate women or not--I only care that they are being sexist to me and making my life harder. Their intentions don't matter to me, the impact of their actions on me is what matters to me. You can not actively hate women and still contribute to sexism and making women's lives harder.

If you're bullying me because you hate me or bullying me because you think it's amusing, either way you are bullying me and I want it to stop. One's intentions matter less than the consequences of one's actions. This is a reality that everyone has to deal with if they are not a sociopath completely lacking empathy: whatever your intentions, your actions towards others have consequences, and dealing with and being responsible for those consequences is called being an adult.
No one denying Trump's idiocy. But sexist is a strong word to through towards someone. I think all of your grievances are legitimate and I certainly don't like Trump.

But the thing I think intent defines a person's thinking not actions. Intentions define what the person ultimately wants to do. Actions are just the result of it.

I personally like it that people like you are not afraid to bash Trump. I think we need people like you to show that those kinds of behaviours are bad.


My point is that even if you don't believe sexist things, if you behave in a sexist way towards people then you might as well have those beliefs because the end result is the same for the people whom you behave in a sexist way towards. I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp.

Say you are a manager and you make your workplace toxic by making racist jokes all the time--maybe you don't actually believe your race is superior to others, you just find racist jokes funny because they are taboo. If you have people of other races in your workplace, they are going to experience more stress and less productivity because of the racist jokes, even though you don't actually think you are better than them. They are still going to feel unwelcome in the workplace, and possibly afraid of their coworkers who laugh along with the racist jokes. The result (toxic environment) is the same for other people whatever your intentions are when your behaviour is racist.

Intention matters very little in regards to actions and their impact on others. This is something you need to grasp when you go out in the world and you interact with others--your intentions might matter a lot to you, but they don't matter much to everyone else, it's your behaviour and its consequences that matter and that is how life works.
I agree with most of what you say. But I just don't think we should throw around the word racist lightly. Its like saying someone is a terrible person when in actual fact they may just be careless.

That's why we need people like you to point out these things. But if we use racist as a word to throw around to those people we risk mislabelling and condemning those who just lacked a bit of self awareness.


People react to the word that way not because it's not an accurate description of their behaviour, but because they have an irrational fear of the word itself. That's not a legitimate reason to stop using it to identify racist/sexist behaviour. Like, many guys (about a third) will admit to using force to make a woman have sex with them, but they will not admit to it if the word "rape" is used in the question. This does not change the nature of what they did (forcing someone to have sex with you is rape), it just means they can't handle an accurate label of their behaviour because they don't want to accept the truth about themselves--that they are rapists. If you've raped, you're a rapist. Accurate language is important, even when it makes people uncomfortable. If you don't want to be called a racist, don't act like a racist and you won't have to worry about people calling you that. Being afraid of the word itself is irrational and avoiding labelling behaviour accurately to spare irrational feelings helps no one.


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