Let's talk about drugs.

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Orwell
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26 Jan 2011, 1:11 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Besides, alcohol has a higher social cost than pot, heroin, crack, or any other drug in existence, so your argument is still a steaming load of crap even if I uncritically accept all of your incorrect and asinine assumptions.

Bad argument, they'll just say "ban alcohol" and "see what happens when you legalize something?" rather than accepting that alcohol is a pretty damaging drug that's perfectly legal.

No they won't. These people are foolish enough to persist in their ridiculous double standard, and besides, alcohol is often a drug that they use and like so they refuse to acknowledge that it also has serious costs. The purpose here is to demonstrate more clearly the absurdity of the position that alcohol should be legal and pot illegal. If any prohibitionist actually takes a consistent stance and advocates repeal of the 21st Amendment, we can then safely say "You are ignorant of history; we tried your proposal and it was a dismal failure, now go away."

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PatrickNeville
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26 Jan 2011, 1:16 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Bad argument, they'll just say "ban alcohol" and "see what happens when you legalize something?" rather than accepting that alcohol is a pretty damaging drug that's perfectly legal.

Banning alcohol would be near to impossible and i would not want to be the police officers attempting to enforce the laws on the newly founded alcohol trade.

Alcohol IS such a destructive drug.

Certain drugs if you ask me such as weed and DMT should be deregulated and sold in a way we know it will be safe.

DMT for spiritual reasons

Weed, because i know what it is like to be a pot head at school and feel outcast from other people for it. I turned myself skitzophernic thanks to weed and it was difficult to seek help. If it were deregulated though, people would not find it as hard to trust the dangers of it being told to them., they would find it easier to seek help if needed and then of course there the gateway drug arguement as well.

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skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 1:20 pm

PatrickNeville wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Bad argument, they'll just say "ban alcohol" and "see what happens when you legalize something?" rather than accepting that alcohol is a pretty damaging drug that's perfectly legal.

If you're gonna say DMT, you may as well include MDMA, psilocybin mushrooms, and mescaline: all of which have shown to have positive spiritual/psychological effects on people in studies.

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PatrickNeville
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26 Jan 2011, 1:33 pm

skafather84 wrote:

PatrickNeville wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Bad argument, they'll just say "ban alcohol" and "see what happens when you legalize something?" rather than accepting that alcohol is a pretty damaging drug that's perfectly legal.

If you're gonna say DMT, you may as well include MDMA, psilocybin mushrooms, and mescaline: all of which have shown to have positive spiritual/psychological effects on people in studies.

You are right.

MDMA, in its pure form is still not good for the body. i know unfortunately. spent too many years i was meant to be learning at school popping pills. Recommend NOT getting into it. For a persons mental health, you could almost say it is similar to an SSRI in a way.

I picked DMT because many people say that it is the most insightful substance there is. No recorded deaths, no recorded violence, no toxic effects. Nothing but massive realisations of ones self.

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skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 1:59 pm

PatrickNeville wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

PatrickNeville wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Bad argument, they'll just say "ban alcohol" and "see what happens when you legalize something?" rather than accepting that alcohol is a pretty damaging drug that's perfectly legal.

If you're gonna say DMT, you may as well include MDMA, psilocybin mushrooms, and mescaline: all of which have shown to have positive spiritual/psychological effects on people in studies.

I think MDMA should be used purely for psychiatric reasons considering the risk with it but mescaline and psilocybin should be available for casual use.

DMT is very interesting and something I'd be interested in trying. Reading DMT: The Spirit Molecule right now. It certainly seems safe enough through what he described in regards to the effects of DMT on the body and what not. Also seems like a very useful device in terms of psychological work...though I'd imagine new techniques and methods would need to be developed to really work with it correctly.

PatrickNeville
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26 Jan 2011, 2:11 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Yep. DMT is a great thing apparently.

it is in our pineal glands and is produced during REM sleep.

Us autisic people may have less of it because lots of us may not sleep as well and have low melatonin levels. A problem associated with the pineal gland.

In general, prohibition is preventing us from researching certain things which could really benefit everyone. Weed definitely for medical reasons and DMT for spiritual reasons.

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skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 2:33 pm

PatrickNeville wrote:

it is in our pineal glands and is produced during REM sleep.

That's one of the criticisms of the book I mentioned is that he author fails to present enough reasonable proof for endogenous DMT production. I haven't read the other studies that make the claims about DMT production during sleep or anything so I'm not sure if those are any more reliable. The states and brain activity are extremely similar, though.

And it may not necessarily be DMT that is produced but a variant triptamine (most of which seem to be psychedelic in nature).

skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 2:35 pm

PatrickNeville wrote:

In general, prohibition is preventing us from researching certain things which could really benefit everyone. Weed definitely for medical reasons and DMT for spiritual reasons.

Eff that. Weed for casual reasons. Let's see how the alcohol market does when there's a strong competitor.

Vigilans
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26 Jan 2011, 2:59 pm

skafather84 wrote:

PatrickNeville wrote:

In general, prohibition is preventing us from researching certain things which could really benefit everyone. Weed definitely for medical reasons and DMT for spiritual reasons.

Eff that. Weed for casual reasons. Let's see how the alcohol market does when there's a strong competitor.

I'm a big fan on non-alcoholic beer spiked with liquid THC...

I agree about MDMA being limited to people who request it for psychiatric reasons. There is such an endemic culture of pill poppers in Montreal, its just pure ugly

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26 Jan 2011, 3:11 pm

Vigilans wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

PatrickNeville wrote:

In general, prohibition is preventing us from researching certain things which could really benefit everyone. Weed definitely for medical reasons and DMT for spiritual reasons.

Eff that. Weed for casual reasons. Let's see how the alcohol market does when there's a strong competitor.

I'm a big fan on non-alcoholic beer spiked with liquid THC...

I agree about MDMA being limited to people who request it for psychiatric reasons. There is such an endemic culture of pill poppers in Montreal, its just pure ugly

Not that MDMA is a good thing for recreational use, but i can say for certain if the pills i used to take were not cut with things like speed, caffine and who knows what else then i would be healthier today, This is what happens in a profit driven society.

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skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 3:12 pm

Vigilans wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

PatrickNeville wrote:

In general, prohibition is preventing us from researching certain things which could really benefit everyone. Weed definitely for medical reasons and DMT for spiritual reasons.

Eff that. Weed for casual reasons. Let's see how the alcohol market does when there's a strong competitor.

I'm a big fan on non-alcoholic beer spiked with liquid THC...

I agree about MDMA being limited to people who request it for psychiatric reasons. There is such an endemic culture of pill poppers in Montreal, its just pure ugly

There's a lot of positive research with MDMA treating PTSD. The pill popper culture is mostly around pain killers. People love popping those and drinking beer with.

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26 Jan 2011, 3:22 pm

Unfortunately, around here at least, starting at grade 7 MDMA is a drug of choice for many people... I see it as a real cultural problem here. Its almost like a right of passage in high school to take pills every day. Strangely, not from my generation, but from the grades below, ecstasy is a major issue in high schools. I have read that Quebec has the highest drop out rate in North America and I can believe it.. I'm of the opinion that not having junior high school is probably more to blame then the drugs themselves as young teenagers are mingling with much older teenagers. I should add the legal drinking age here is 18 and is considering mostly a suggestion

skafather84
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26 Jan 2011, 3:30 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Various forms of ecstasy were popular when I was in high school and with that stuff, I have to wonder about the manufacturing process and purity of the product. I'm not sure they're the same thing as what would constitute a medical grade MDMA.

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26 Jan 2011, 3:42 pm

Its true. I have often wondered about the quality of product my peers are consuming. Apparently though Canada is now a major manufactory of synthetic drugs such as MDMA or Methamphetamine

PatrickNeville
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26 Jan 2011, 3:59 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Its true. I have often wondered about the quality of product my peers are consuming. Apparently though Canada is now a major manufactory of synthetic drugs such as MDMA or Methamphetamine

I am lucky enough to have access to MDMA pills which are of a very high quality.

Can say for myself that the quality in them has made a difference in any negative effects from them.

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91
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26 Jan 2011, 10:38 pm

Orwell wrote:

91 wrote:

I am sorry you find my arguments unconvincing. As a taxpayer, I find the social cost factor important.

The problem is that either you are deliberately misreprenting the cost, or you really don't understand where that social cost comes from. Much of the social cost is a direct result of drug prohibition. Besides, alcohol has a higher social cost than pot, heroin, crack, or any other drug in existence, so your argument is still a steaming load of crap even if I uncritically accept all of your incorrect and asinine assumptions.

Treatment programs cost the government more than the provisioning of law enforcement. You have an obvious bias toward the evidence. The societal costs of drugs involves far more than just the cost of criminalization, the cost of treatment, providing health care to the addicted, the loss of taxes from people dropping out of the economy, the crimes committed by those who are out of their brains on drugs. As to your position Orwell, I can at least see why you might disagree with me, you can at least indicate the same.

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