How to peacefully disband The Illegimate State of Israel
18 Apr 2011, 1:14 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
I never got the chance to read the story in the recent issue of Time, as I was on a dead run with my five year old, but there is an article there about younger Palestinian activists who have forsworn violence, and are looking for constructive means of dealing with Israel. There may be hope, yet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
And a Leprachaun may yet sh*t out gold at the end of the rainbow.
Do you know what the call a moderate in Palestine? They call it a corpse.
ruveyn
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18 Apr 2011, 1:27 pm
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Don't you know though, they don't mind getting their butts kicked so long as Israel gets painted as an Imperialistic Aggressor. Israel could kick orders of magnitude more butt than they do in self defense, but they don't. They could wipe out the entire region with neutron bombs and only get slightly worse publicity on CNN and the BBC, but they don't. Meekness is real strength, and for what Israel is forced to put up with Israel displays quite a lot of meekness.
Israel has a neutron bomb? Somehow I doubt that. We know they have fission nukes. There is no evidence they have thermonuclear bombs. But it is possible. Could it be that Israel's Jewish physicists are better than our Jewish physicists?
ruveyn
I thought I had read about Israel having neutron bombs before. Either way, nuking the entire region and devastating it is possible for Israel to do and yet Israel doesn't. If it were a video game, I would have made most of the middle east a fair bit more reflective way back, and such is an option at Israel's disposal but it is an option that they haven't used and probably aren't going to use regardless of M.A.D and even though Israel's enemies are M-A-D as rabid hyenas.
Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 1:57 pm
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I never got the chance to read the story in the recent issue of Time, as I was on a dead run with my five year old, but there is an article there about younger Palestinian activists who have forsworn violence, and are looking for constructive means of dealing with Israel. There may be hope, yet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
And a Leprachaun may yet sh*t out gold at the end of the rainbow.
Do you know what the call a moderate in Palestine? They call it a corpse.
ruveyn
Unfortunately, the allied leaders during the Second World War had the same opinion about the Germans, and so blew the opportunity of aiding the underground within the Germany army. Otherwise, Stauffenberg's bomb plot to kill Hitler, and the subsequent plan to overthrow the Nazi regime might have had a chance of working. Instead, the allies chose to ignore the overtures of these genuine German patriots.
We should never discount the possibility that good guys might be hiding within the ranks of the bad guys.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 2:43 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I never got the chance to read the story in the recent issue of Time, as I was on a dead run with my five year old, but there is an article there about younger Palestinian activists who have forsworn violence, and are looking for constructive means of dealing with Israel. There may be hope, yet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
And a Leprachaun may yet sh*t out gold at the end of the rainbow.
Do you know what the call a moderate in Palestine? They call it a corpse.
ruveyn
Unfortunately, the allied leaders during the Second World War had the same opinion about the Germans, and so blew the opportunity of aiding the underground within the Germany army. Otherwise, Stauffenberg's bomb plot to kill Hitler, and the subsequent plan to overthrow the Nazi regime might have had a chance of working. Instead, the allies chose to ignore the overtures of these genuine German patriots.
We should never discount the possibility that good guys might be hiding within the ranks of the bad guys.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
What could the allied forces really have done to aid underground movements against the Nazi regime anyhow? If people like Oscar Schindler or other Germans who attempted to do what they could were caught communicating with allied forces that would fairly well have been the end of their story. In the enemies on every side situation Israel faces, their primary enemies - in proximity anyhow - are militias which excel at brainwashing. Finding allies amongst those who are brainwashed to think that you're the devil incarnate is going to work about as well as using lead weights as a life preserver.
18 Apr 2011, 3:45 pm
John_Browning wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
using the OP's logic, why doesn't America give its land back to the Native Americans? i hope isreael NEVER gives up their land!
Russia and the United States ought to return Antarctica to the penguins as well. Also, amends ought to be made for the actions of Sir Francis Drake against the Penguin Empire.
I love how you compare Palestinian people to Penguins. It really shows what a crock of shoot the whole notion that Christianity is all about the universality of human rights and morality when a fundie is willing to laugh as men, women, and children are forced out of their homes.
I don't know where you got penguins from
Do try and read the posts you respond to.
John_Browning wrote:
As for the settlements, most of them were build on undeveloped property. The Palestinian villages that got bulldozed were rats nests of terrorist activity and home to many suicide bombers.
Those are post-hoc rationalizations and there's very little proof required to indicate that a "terrorist" lives their. Often, the official rationale is to expand a "buffer zone" or punish relatives of insurgents. The de facto rationale is collective punishment as well as clearing land for settlement expansion.
John_Browning wrote:
Counterterror operations have nothing to do with Christianity.
Illegally destroying peoples' homes and livelihoods does have a lot to do with Christianity's alleged virtues and compassion of humanity. It's funny, really, as you'd probably ball your eyes out if someone decided to raise taxes by 4% on a small business owner, whining that it destroys their livelihood and is a wrongful seizure of private property, yet when shaddy home demolition operations are conducted under dubious "counter-terrorism" rationalizations, you cheer like hell. You've already revealed yourself to be a racist, so I guess I can understand why.
18 Apr 2011, 3:50 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
If you are an atheist, then you ought to consider humans and penguins as both merely animals. Why should you make any distinction?
As numerous ethical theorists have posited, a certain quality of consciousness is the basis for the distinction.
iamnotaparkaeet wrote:
The Aztecs were cannibals prior to the Spanish conquests of Latin America, but I suppose that everyone of Spanish heritage ought to be sent back to Spain?
Many Mexicans are a blend between Spanish and indigenous ancestry, so that would be pure stupidity.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The Judeans were forced from their homes and dispersed throughout the world by the Romans about two millennia ago and only had been able to return and re-declare their homeland as a UN recognized nation as of 1948, but you would implicate that their men, women, and children would need to be forced out of their homes while you laugh about how you think you're such a wiseguy by calling me a "fundie" and making statements about actions that you think I'd do.
So, since theft has occured in the past, it's okay for a home invader to steal you're TV? That really doesn't make any sense, since Israel's present actions were made possible by the international community and Israel's continued existence is only possible due to aid from the international community and the home demolitions aren't some relic of distant memory, they're occuring right now.
Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 4:28 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I never got the chance to read the story in the recent issue of Time, as I was on a dead run with my five year old, but there is an article there about younger Palestinian activists who have forsworn violence, and are looking for constructive means of dealing with Israel. There may be hope, yet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
And a Leprachaun may yet sh*t out gold at the end of the rainbow.
Do you know what the call a moderate in Palestine? They call it a corpse.
ruveyn
Unfortunately, the allied leaders during the Second World War had the same opinion about the Germans, and so blew the opportunity of aiding the underground within the Germany army. Otherwise, Stauffenberg's bomb plot to kill Hitler, and the subsequent plan to overthrow the Nazi regime might have had a chance of working. Instead, the allies chose to ignore the overtures of these genuine German patriots.
We should never discount the possibility that good guys might be hiding within the ranks of the bad guys.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
What could the allied forces really have done to aid underground movements against the Nazi regime anyhow? If people like Oscar Schindler or other Germans who attempted to do what they could were caught communicating with allied forces that would fairly well have been the end of their story. In the enemies on every side situation Israel faces, their primary enemies - in proximity anyhow - are militias which excel at brainwashing. Finding allies amongst those who are brainwashed to think that you're the devil incarnate is going to work about as well as using lead weights as a life preserver.
Actually, Anti-Nazi elements in German military intelligence, the Abwehr, such as Abvehr leader Wilhelm Canaris and and his lieutenant Hans Oster had been in constant communication with the allies, giving them Nazi secret strategies. Churchil in fact told his spies to make no move on Canaris, as he knew Canaris was Anti-Hitler. Oddly enough, the allies chose not to aid Canaris' supporters in the bomb plot.
But plenty could have been done. Von Stauffenberg had made his move after D Day; so a joint strategy could have possibly been worked out to support the plotters. But by that time, the allies had long ago decided that they would only accept non-conditional surrender from the Germans. But as Rommel had been part of the plot, I think it was possible that he may have been able to gain the support of his old (friendly) rivals, Patton and Montgomery, to push for negotiations. That is, if the assassination attempt actually had worked, and Rommel wasn't comatose after surviving an allied air attack.
Unfortunately, Stauffenberg had been shot by firing squad, Rommel had been forced to commit suicide, and Cannaris and Oster had been hanged with piano wire, as had most of the conspirators, and anyone associated with them.
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 4:34 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 4:48 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 4:50 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would hope that most civilians in the Gaza strip would probably want to live in peace, however it's the lunatics who keep acquiring military hardware that make life stink for everyone.
Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 4:57 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would hope that most civilians in the Gaza strip would probably want to live in peace, however it's the lunatics who keep acquiring military hardware that make life stink for everyone.
That's absolutely true.
In all fairness though, it's the abject poverty, and the self perception of being social pariahs that feed into creating the lunatics.
...Who only create a vicious cycle which keeps the desperate poverty, mistrust, and alienation alive.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 5:16 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would hope that most civilians in the Gaza strip would probably want to live in peace, however it's the lunatics who keep acquiring military hardware that make life stink for everyone.
That's absolutely true.
In all fairness though, it's the abject poverty, and the self perception of being social pariahs that feed into creating the lunatics.
...Who only create a vicious cycle which keeps the desperate poverty, mistrust, and alienation alive.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
For the last few decades they didn't need abject poverty. The PLO had been offered land at the cost of peace, and yet Arafat and his comrades didn't want it. The situation there has be sustained by their own leadership and made worse over time by feeding into their own cycle by blaming the Jewish people and blaming the Israeli Defense Force for responding to force with force. If they'd stop with all the blasted fatwas and jihads, then they'd have peace. However, with leaders who don't care about peace but only wish to make a spectacle and militias who are hooked on murder, there really can't be peace. This is what the militias and corrupt leaders want though, a never ending conflict which they can used to recruit more soldiers (as well as useful idiots within the international community who jump on their bandwagon of "nobly fighting a stronger opponent".)
Kraichgauer
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18 Apr 2011, 6:05 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would hope that most civilians in the Gaza strip would probably want to live in peace, however it's the lunatics who keep acquiring military hardware that make life stink for everyone.
That's absolutely true.
In all fairness though, it's the abject poverty, and the self perception of being social pariahs that feed into creating the lunatics.
...Who only create a vicious cycle which keeps the desperate poverty, mistrust, and alienation alive.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
For the last few decades they didn't need abject poverty. The PLO had been offered land at the cost of peace, and yet Arafat and his comrades didn't want it. The situation there has be sustained by their own leadership and made worse over time by feeding into their own cycle by blaming the Jewish people and blaming the Israeli Defense Force for responding to force with force. If they'd stop with all the blasted fatwas and jihads, then they'd have peace. However, with leaders who don't care about peace but only wish to make a spectacle and militias who are hooked on murder, there really can't be peace. This is what the militias and corrupt leaders want though, a never ending conflict which they can used to recruit more soldiers (as well as useful idiots within the international community who jump on their bandwagon of "nobly fighting a stronger opponent".)
Well, despite the promise of land, the common people still live in abject poverty - which unfortunately plays right into the hands of corrupt leaders like the late Yasser Arafat, and the new breed of extremists.
-Bill, otherwise known s Kraichgauer
iamnotaparakeet
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18 Apr 2011, 6:15 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for the Palestinians - I was talking about the younger activists who are looking for solutions beyond violence. I realize I was unintentionally misleading in my last post about just who I was talking about.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's specifically the younger ones who are the target market for brainwashing. Right now there are so many wars between the nations and between Israel so much as between unpoliced militias who use civilians as meat shields, doubling as journalistic material, and harass and murder Israeli civilians until the IDF is forced to respond to finally stop them.
I don't disagree with that. But not every Palestinian activist is associated with terrorist groups. It's these who may be a light for the future.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would hope that most civilians in the Gaza strip would probably want to live in peace, however it's the lunatics who keep acquiring military hardware that make life stink for everyone.
That's absolutely true.
In all fairness though, it's the abject poverty, and the self perception of being social pariahs that feed into creating the lunatics.
...Who only create a vicious cycle which keeps the desperate poverty, mistrust, and alienation alive.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
For the last few decades they didn't need abject poverty. The PLO had been offered land at the cost of peace, and yet Arafat and his comrades didn't want it. The situation there has be sustained by their own leadership and made worse over time by feeding into their own cycle by blaming the Jewish people and blaming the Israeli Defense Force for responding to force with force. If they'd stop with all the blasted fatwas and jihads, then they'd have peace. However, with leaders who don't care about peace but only wish to make a spectacle and militias who are hooked on murder, there really can't be peace. This is what the militias and corrupt leaders want though, a never ending conflict which they can used to recruit more soldiers (as well as useful idiots within the international community who jump on their bandwagon of "nobly fighting a stronger opponent".)
Well, despite the promise of land, the common people still live in abject poverty - which unfortunately plays right into the hands of corrupt leaders like the late Yasser Arafat, and the new breed of extremists.
-Bill, otherwise known s Kraichgauer
Yep, and the new breed of leaders by force continue to blame the Jewish people right as they load their weapons for their next round of "freedom fighting".
18 Apr 2011, 6:40 pm
Like it or not we are stuck with the existence of 'Israel'
I think it is more appropriate to ask, 'how do we eliminate Zionist bigotry from their thinking and convince them to chill out with their neighbours?'
The situation is a little like Northern Ireland/Ulster in that you have an abused and disenfranchised indigenous people forced to live alongside a 'plantation' population of a different religous persuasion who are entirely predjudiced against them.
Just as vast numbers of palestinians would like to peacfully get on with their lives with some level of adjustment to this 'new' situation I am told their are similar numbers of Israeli Jews who feel the same [I am however yet to meet one, normally they come across as racist neo fascists].
The key problems blocking progress are
1/ the zionist agenda.
2/ entrenched mutual hatreds and resentment.
3/ the ongoing expansion of 'settlements'
4/ the creation of the 'Gaza Ghetto'
5/ the treatment of Palestinians with regard justice issues by the Israeli state
There are more but the Palestinians I have spoken to would see the focus on these as paramount.
Big problems, no simple solutions....
peace j
_________________
Just because we can does not mean we should.
What vision is left? And is anyone asking?
Have a great day!
18 Apr 2011, 6:42 pm
RedHanrahan wrote:
Like it or not we are stuck with the existence of 'Israel'
I think it is more appropriate to ask, 'how do we eliminate Zionist bigotry from their thinking and convince them to chill out with their neighbours?'
The situation is a little like Northern Ireland/Ulster in that you have an abused and disenfranchised indigenous people forced to live alongside a 'plantation' population of a different religous persuasion who are entirely predjudiced against them.
Just as vast numbers of palestinians would like to peacfully get on with their lives with some level of adjustment to this 'new' situation I am told their are similar numbers of Israeli Jews who feel the same [I am however yet to meet one, normally they come across as racist neo fascists].
The key problems blocking progress are
1/ the zionist agenda.
2/ entrenched mutual hatreds and resentment.
3/ the ongoing expansion of 'settlements'
4/ the creation of the 'Gaza Ghetto'
5/ the treatment of Palestinians with regard justice issues by the Israeli state
There are more but the Palestinians I have spoken to would see the focus on these as paramount.
Big problems, no simple solutions....
peace j
I think it is more appropriate to ask, 'how do we eliminate Zionist bigotry from their thinking and convince them to chill out with their neighbours?'
The situation is a little like Northern Ireland/Ulster in that you have an abused and disenfranchised indigenous people forced to live alongside a 'plantation' population of a different religous persuasion who are entirely predjudiced against them.
Just as vast numbers of palestinians would like to peacfully get on with their lives with some level of adjustment to this 'new' situation I am told their are similar numbers of Israeli Jews who feel the same [I am however yet to meet one, normally they come across as racist neo fascists].
The key problems blocking progress are
1/ the zionist agenda.
2/ entrenched mutual hatreds and resentment.
3/ the ongoing expansion of 'settlements'
4/ the creation of the 'Gaza Ghetto'
5/ the treatment of Palestinians with regard justice issues by the Israeli state
There are more but the Palestinians I have spoken to would see the focus on these as paramount.
Big problems, no simple solutions....
peace j
You completely ignore the fact Palestinians are using their own children as bombs, that tidbit alone invalidates your entire argument.
