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How strong is the evidence that Jesus existed?

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MCalavera
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06 Dec 2011, 5:40 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I am not sure what evidence you are asking for but here goes:


You're saying that the ancients' observations of the sun (and whatever else) led them to come up with a series of stories with extremely identical key points shared among them (including the story of Jesus who is purportedly some sun god like Horus and others).

It's for such claims that I'm asking for some evidence.

The ones you posted are irrelevant, even the Christmas day bit. Because, really, it's what the Bible says about Jesus that really matters in this context (not what much later Christians believed).



MCalavera
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06 Dec 2011, 5:44 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I take the reasoning route to the truth value of the story of jesus and estimate there are 3 possibilities:

1 - The story is true
2 - The story is made up from thin air and based on nothing but the writers imagination
3 - It is a retelling of an older story

1 is obviously out of the question. 2 is more credible but it would be hard to believe such an elaborate story could have just been made up from nothing. 3 - has the most credibility as stories are always retold from one generation to another and the solstice has been celebrated across the world for millenia and always involves some kind of sun god being reborn

If you can think of any other options then let me know.


Yes, I can easily think of one which you haven't mentioned. A mix between 1 and 2 and 3.

You made two logical fallacies that I know of above.

First is the False Dilemma (False Trichotomy) fallacy, and the second is a non sequitur (you never provided evidence bridging any connection between solstice and the Gospel Jesus story).



MCalavera
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06 Dec 2011, 5:47 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

The books of the Bible predate Constantine by around a couple of centuries. You're once again being misled by frauds who think they know better than the real experts.


We are not talking about the books from the bible which prove nothing either way. We are talking about the origins of christmas and the possibility it is linked to previous sun god celebrations at the solstice. In particular why do christians celebrate the 25th as jesus's birth.


It's the books of the Bible that tell us that Jesus was born of a virgin, dead for "3 days", and then risen from the dead after that. You didn't need Constantine or some later fellows to add these elements to the Gospel story simply because they were already there in the Bible.



MCalavera
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06 Dec 2011, 5:49 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

The flood story in the Bible was copied/adapted from prior myth, yes.

The Jesus story, NO.


So you have evidence? (For yes to the flood but no to the jesus story)


Yes, we have some evidence. Ever read the Gilgamesh story of the flood (for example)?

I'm happy to provide some sources later if you want evidence.



MCalavera
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06 Dec 2011, 5:51 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

The books of the Bible predate Constantine by around a couple of centuries. You're once again being misled by frauds who think they know better than the real experts.


We are not talking about the books from the bible which prove nothing either way. We are talking about the origins of christmas and the possibility it is linked to previous sun god celebrations at the solstice. In particular why do christians celebrate the 25th as jesus's birth.


Most likely, the early church had chosen to celebrate Jesus' birthday on December 25th, in order to draw pagan converts to whom the date had significance. I suspect that by that time, no one really remembered what date he had been born on, anyway. What was important was, new converts were doubtlessly brought to the faith by this means. But nowhere does it say in the Bible that Jesus had been born on that particular date.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know, but why do christians go potty on december 25th? why midnight mass? why do they talk of the ascension? who are the 3 kings? what was the bright star to the east? and why are they said to be following the location of the saviours birthplace?

I am trying to show MCalavera of the similarities between the jesus story and the solstice celestial observations but he is demanding evidence. Apart from telling him to come to Europe one midwinter and observe the skies, or buy some star chart software that will show him, I don't know what else to give him.


I can observe the sky and sun as much as you want me to, but this'll never give me evidence for a connection between solstice and Jesus Gospel story.



Robdemanc
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07 Dec 2011, 9:15 am

MCalavera wrote:

It's the books of the Bible that tell us that Jesus was born of a virgin, dead for "3 days", and then risen from the dead after that. You didn't need Constantine or some later fellows to add these elements to the Gospel story simply because they were already there in the Bible.


Ok, but when was that written into the bible? Was it in the latin version, the greek version or the original hebrew version? Or did our English scribes write in during the translation they did in the 15th Century?

And so what is your stance? That what the bible is saying is true? And that Jesus died and was risen 3 days later?



Robdemanc
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07 Dec 2011, 9:19 am

MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I take the reasoning route to the truth value of the story of jesus and estimate there are 3 possibilities:

1 - The story is true
2 - The story is made up from thin air and based on nothing but the writers imagination
3 - It is a retelling of an older story

1 is obviously out of the question. 2 is more credible but it would be hard to believe such an elaborate story could have just been made up from nothing. 3 - has the most credibility as stories are always retold from one generation to another and the solstice has been celebrated across the world for millenia and always involves some kind of sun god being reborn

If you can think of any other options then let me know.


Yes, I can easily think of one which you haven't mentioned. A mix between 1 and 2 and 3.

You made two logical fallacies that I know of above.

First is the False Dilemma (False Trichotomy) fallacy, and the second is a non sequitur (you never provided evidence bridging any connection between solstice and the Gospel Jesus story).


So you are saying the story of jesus is part true, part made up, and part retelling of older stories?



Robdemanc
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07 Dec 2011, 9:23 am

MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

The flood story in the Bible was copied/adapted from prior myth, yes.

The Jesus story, NO.


So you have evidence? (For yes to the flood but no to the jesus story)


Yes, we have some evidence. Ever read the Gilgamesh story of the flood (for example)?

I'm happy to provide some sources later if you want evidence.


We all know the flood story, as it seems does every single remote tribe and religion. Obviously it relates to a single environmental event that caused local flooding, or perhaps a rise in sea levels at the end of the last ice age.

It is no different from the fact that most religions from different times have a sun god, or practiced sun worship, had the notion of death and rebirth, and celebrated the winter solstice. Jesus is no different.



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07 Dec 2011, 9:25 am

MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I am not sure what evidence you are asking for but here goes:


You're saying that the ancients' observations of the sun (and whatever else) led them to come up with a series of stories with extremely identical key points shared among them (including the story of Jesus who is purportedly some sun god like Horus and others).

It's for such claims that I'm asking for some evidence.

The ones you posted are irrelevant, even the Christmas day bit. Because, really, it's what the Bible says about Jesus that really matters in this context (not what much later Christians believed).


You will not get evidence for these claims in the same way you will not get evidence that a man named jesus existed in the first place.



Robdemanc
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07 Dec 2011, 9:34 am

MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

The books of the Bible predate Constantine by around a couple of centuries. You're once again being misled by frauds who think they know better than the real experts.


We are not talking about the books from the bible which prove nothing either way. We are talking about the origins of christmas and the possibility it is linked to previous sun god celebrations at the solstice. In particular why do christians celebrate the 25th as jesus's birth.


Most likely, the early church had chosen to celebrate Jesus' birthday on December 25th, in order to draw pagan converts to whom the date had significance. I suspect that by that time, no one really remembered what date he had been born on, anyway. What was important was, new converts were doubtlessly brought to the faith by this means. But nowhere does it say in the Bible that Jesus had been born on that particular date.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know, but why do christians go potty on december 25th? why midnight mass? why do they talk of the ascension? who are the 3 kings? what was the bright star to the east? and why are they said to be following the location of the saviours birthplace?

I am trying to show MCalavera of the similarities between the jesus story and the solstice celestial observations but he is demanding evidence. Apart from telling him to come to Europe one midwinter and observe the skies, or buy some star chart software that will show him, I don't know what else to give him.


I can observe the sky and sun as much as you want me to, but this'll never give me evidence for a connection between solstice and Jesus Gospel story.


You will never find evidence at all for any of it, link to solstice or no link to solstice. But at least we can safely say the solstice takes place, and for an observer on earth it takes at least 3 days to know that the sun has "died but is reborn". And we can observe it every year. Nobody will ever have any evidence that a man named jesus ever existed.



MCalavera
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07 Dec 2011, 6:03 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

It's the books of the Bible that tell us that Jesus was born of a virgin, dead for "3 days", and then risen from the dead after that. You didn't need Constantine or some later fellows to add these elements to the Gospel story simply because they were already there in the Bible.


Ok, but when was that written into the bible?


In the first century AD. Long before Constantine.

Quote:
Was it in the latin version, the greek version or the original hebrew version?


It's in the original Greek and in later translations (Latin, English, etc.)

Quote:
Or did our English scribes write in during the translation they did in the 15th Century?


No, we have evidence that they were mentioned long before the 15th century.

Quote:
And so what is your stance? That what the bible is saying is true? And that Jesus died and was risen 3 days later?


No, that what the Bible says goes against what you say. What the Bible says matters in the context of our discussion.



MCalavera
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07 Dec 2011, 6:05 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I take the reasoning route to the truth value of the story of jesus and estimate there are 3 possibilities:

1 - The story is true
2 - The story is made up from thin air and based on nothing but the writers imagination
3 - It is a retelling of an older story

1 is obviously out of the question. 2 is more credible but it would be hard to believe such an elaborate story could have just been made up from nothing. 3 - has the most credibility as stories are always retold from one generation to another and the solstice has been celebrated across the world for millenia and always involves some kind of sun god being reborn

If you can think of any other options then let me know.


Yes, I can easily think of one which you haven't mentioned. A mix between 1 and 2 and 3.

You made two logical fallacies that I know of above.

First is the False Dilemma (False Trichotomy) fallacy, and the second is a non sequitur (you never provided evidence bridging any connection between solstice and the Gospel Jesus story).


So you are saying the story of jesus is part true, part made up, and part retelling of older stories?


Parts true, parts made up, and possibly minor elements copied/adapted from previous sources (but not in the way you, as an Acharyan, think).



MCalavera
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07 Dec 2011, 6:07 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
We all know the flood story, as it seems does every single remote tribe and religion. Obviously it relates to a single environmental event that caused local flooding, or perhaps a rise in sea levels at the end of the last ice age.


Ice age?

Quote:
It is no different from the fact that most religions from different times have a sun god, or practiced sun worship, had the notion of death and rebirth, and celebrated the winter solstice. Jesus is no different.


Evidence please. Don't make such seemingly factual claims if you don't have evidence to back them up.



MCalavera
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07 Dec 2011, 6:11 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I am not sure what evidence you are asking for but here goes:


You're saying that the ancients' observations of the sun (and whatever else) led them to come up with a series of stories with extremely identical key points shared among them (including the story of Jesus who is purportedly some sun god like Horus and others).

It's for such claims that I'm asking for some evidence.

The ones you posted are irrelevant, even the Christmas day bit. Because, really, it's what the Bible says about Jesus that really matters in this context (not what much later Christians believed).


You will not get evidence for these claims in the same way you will not get evidence that a man named jesus existed in the first place.


We have evidence Jesus likely existed.

We don't have evidence (from antiquity, that is) that the Jesus Gospel story was, on the whole, copied/adapted from prior myths.

Show me where it says Horus was born of a virgin, had 12 apostles, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Show me where it says Dionysus was born of a virgin, had 12 apostles, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Show me where it says Osiris was born of a virgin, had 12 apostles, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Show me where it says Mithra was born of a virgin, had 12 apostles, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Show me where it says it was believed Jesus was a sun god by many.

You won't find such evidence from antiquity ... just wild claims made by today's frauds.



Robdemanc
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08 Dec 2011, 5:02 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:

And so what is your stance? That what the bible is saying is true? And that Jesus died and was risen 3 days later?


No, that what the Bible says goes against what you say. What the Bible says matters in the context of our discussion.


If the bible says jesus died and was reborn 3 days later, it does not go against what I say. In fact it supports what i say about the solstice.



Robdemanc
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08 Dec 2011, 5:04 pm

You will never find evidence at all for any of it, link to solstice or no link to solstice. But at least we can safely say the solstice takes place, and for an observer on earth it takes at least 3 days to know that the sun has "died but is reborn". And we can observe it every year. Nobody will ever have any evidence that a man named jesus ever existed.