Atheists that claim they are tolerant explain this

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LKL
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13 Dec 2011, 2:57 am

91 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Darling, the point is not that atheists should not be offended, but that the state should not endorse one belief above others.


It isn't, we have been over this, many secular and muti-faith symbols are in the display and the government has a right to decline to show others. This has next to nothing to do with constitutionality, in many places, atheists have a displays of their own and I did not see the FFRF complaining about them. Given that the display already has secular images in it, the adding of the banner would not necessarily make it constitutional, if their underlying argument is correct and no endorsement is legal, then the adding of a banner would not change a thing. If it is about non-preferentialism, secular and multi-faith symbols are already in the display. The secular position is already represented and supreme court precedent does not oblige the city to display everyone's requests.
But it does forbid them from discriminating. For example, your 'skeleton santa' was one of the first ten submissions at its respective site and thus had to be accepted. If the selection process is non-preferential (ie, 'we will allow anything that our evangelical christian city manager does not find offensive,'), then the FFRF can't complain.

Just out of curiosity, just where is there an atheistic christmas display with nothing else allowed?



91
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13 Dec 2011, 3:10 am

LKL wrote:
But it does forbid them from discriminating. For example, your 'skeleton santa' was one of the first ten submissions at its respective site and thus had to be accepted. If the selection process is non-preferential (ie, 'we will allow anything that our evangelical christian city manager does not find offensive,'), then the FFRF can't complain.


Alot of this wording is misleading. Firstly, it did not discriminate, in the case we are talking about they have secular and muti-faith images already. What they refused to do was add an banner with a pretty offensive statement on it. So I reject the loaded nature of your point. The city has said that they are open to putting up more displays from other religions. I would further add that in the context of the secular images, this does not constitute an endorsement of the Christian position and would fit the criteria of being legal set out in Lynch v. Donnelly and refined by Van Orden v. Perry and Pleasant Grove City v. Summum.

Further I would argue that under Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, governments have a right to chose to say no to some displays. As 'such a situation could put government in the position of accepting permanent monuments with conflicting messages, that do not represent the values and ideals of the community, or removing all monuments from public space'.

LKL wrote:
Just out of curiosity, just where is there an atheistic Christmas display with nothing else allowed?


Another loaded question. The Texas display has muti-faith and secular images. What the atheists seem to be complaining about is the fact that the Christians got the lions share of the space. The exact opposite is the case in Santa Monica where the atheists received the vast majority of the spaces.


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Vexcalibur
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13 Dec 2011, 8:03 am

It is commendable how skilled 91 is at trying to find legal loopholes to justify discrimination. Done this before?

It is so easy to tell that Christians' pants are on fire with this. A nativity scene is harmless and totally not a statement of faith. Yet they get so passionate about pushing them to be displayed in a courthouse, and not only want, they want it to be the prominent display. We are not talking about just public property, we are talking about a place of law. Is this an attempt to get payback for the 10 commandments. We know that Christians have a history of trying to take over courthouses with their 'harmless' statements of faith and ownership over the whole land and law.

Other symbols are added merely to justify the display of the nativity scene and they are picked making sure to discriminate those filthy atheists and their evil group shots.

If Jesus baby pooping his diapers is so harmless and just decoration, then just remove this simple decoration.




Inuyasha wrote:
To be perfectly blunt based on where they wanted to put the banner,

You mean, a public location that should not be exclusive to Christian propaganda?

Oh sure, if the problem was location, the powers that be could have decided a different location. They outright banned the group picture. Let us stop calling it a banner. Unless you are 20 centimeters close to the picture you are not going to read the ultra positive text.

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the entire banner is promoting discrimination and deliberately trying to offend Christians because they are Christian...

It is doing neither of that.
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I'm sorry that you can't recognize that fact, but that's the truth.

Anti-reality.

Quote:
As I pointed out earlier, the banner in question is inflamatory and the fact some people here can't even recognize that fact speaks wonders about their tolerance or lack there-of.

Rather that the idea that there are people out there who don't believe in gods, hell, heaven, angels offends you so much speaks wonders about your own intolerance.

Quote:
Another loaded question. The Texas display has muti-faith and secular images. What the atheists seem to be complaining about is the fact that the Christians got the lions share of the space

Rather that the atheist submissions are not allowed at all. Because the atheists' existence offends the very tolerant Christians that much.

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The exact opposite is the case in Santa Monica where the atheists received the vast majority of the spaces.
Assuming this is true, and seeing by your record it is likely not. It does not mean the outright discrimination in the OP county is right.


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91
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13 Dec 2011, 10:44 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
. A nativity scene is harmless and totally not a statement of faith. Yet they get so passionate about pushing them to be displayed in a courthouse, and not only want, they want it to be the prominent display.


Christians are understandably worried about the growing anger towards the public expression of their views. Especially since the ruling of Lynch v. Donnelly would seem to apply, due to the muti-faith and secular images in the display. The atheist group targeted the Christian image in the display, not the Kwanzaa symbol, not the Jewish Hanukkah symbol. The only thing they wanted removed was the Christian image and that says something. Another display at the State Capital in Madison Wisconsin is under threat. Despite the fact that the city has Hanukkah and other religious displays, the FFRF wants the Christian display removed. So I think it is fair for Christians to feel specifically targeted by these actions.

Vexcalibur wrote:
Rather that the atheist submissions are not allowed at all. Because the atheists' existence offends the very tolerant Christians that much.


You keep repeating this line, but it is not getting any more convincing. Atheist submissions have been allowed in other cities. Including some where the only other display was the FFRF banner. So in the view of the FFRF, a display of views put forward by the government is constitutional, when there is one secular banner and a nativity. The case we have been discussing has many secular and multi-faith images already. So based on their own previous standard, the display would be constitutional; either that, or the more likely truth is, they don't care about constitutionality, they just want attention for their cause and will do just about anything, including picking a fight to get it. As to your assertion, the city says that it is open to other displays, they declined to show the one from the atheists because in their view, it was insulting.

It is worth remembering that in the case of Lynch v. Donnelly, the Rhode Island Christmas display had a Santa, a tree and a seasons greetings banner along with a nativity and it was ruled by the supreme court to be Constitutional. The Texas has nowmen, gnomes, reindeer, Santa and a Christmas Tree. It also has Kwanzaa and Jewish symbols.


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LiendaBalla
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13 Dec 2011, 3:43 pm

"Intolerance" The new fling-around word.



MarcusTulliusCicero
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13 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Why is an atheist group in Wisconsin filing a lawsuit to have a Nativity scene in Texas taken down?

Christian pastors in Henderson County, Texas, are fighting back against atheists who are demanding that a nativity scene located on a courthouse lawn be taken down.

The group behind the complains, the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, frequently targets faith and religion projects that are placed on public lands. The group sent a letter to the county that explains how a local resident, who wishes to remain nameless, is offended by the scene.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/intimid ... mediately/


This isn't atheism. It's secularism

Not the damn same!



HerrGrimm
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13 Dec 2011, 3:59 pm

91 wrote:
It is worth remembering that in the case of Lynch v. Donnelly, the Rhode Island Christmas display had a Santa, a tree and a seasons greetings banner along with a nativity and it was ruled by the supreme court to be Constitutional. The Texas has nowmen, gnomes, reindeer, Santa and a Christmas Tree. It also has Kwanzaa and Jewish symbols.


91 somehow forgot to mention Allegheny vs. ACLU in his litany of Supreme Court cases. Based on that case (which is logical to presume this was the court case mentioned by the complaintants in that Blaze article, which would make it rather important to this discussion), the argument would be legitimate since the video shows the creche was essentially by itself. The article also shows that the Lynch decision involved private property, not a courthouse lawn. A menorah was also involved in the Allegheny ruling, and allowed to stand due to its proximity to a Christmas tree, which is now considered a secular symbol.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in the Allegheny decision wrote:
In contrast to the creche in Lynch, which was displayed in a private park in the city's commercial district as part of a broader display of traditional secular symbols of the holiday season, this creche stands alone in the county courthouse.


The final part of the Allegheny decision wrote:
This recognition that the more religious [p637] alternative may, depending on the circumstances, convey a message that is least likely to implicate Establishment Clause concerns is an excellent example of the need to focus on the specific practice in question in its particular physical setting and context in determining whether government has conveyed or attempted to convey a message that religion or a particular religious belief is favored or preferred.


Again, it looks like it stands alone in the video, leading to an assumption that one religion might be favored. In this article on the Establishment clause, the endorsement test, made by O'Connor, would now usually make this judgment:

Justices O'Connor, Brennan, and Stevens wrote:
I continue to believe that the endorsement test asks the right question about governmental practices challenged on Establishment Clause grounds, including challenged practices involving the display of religious symbols. Moreover, commentators in the scholarly literature have found merit in the approach. See, e.g., Beschle, supra, at 174; Comment, Lemon Reconstituted: Justice O'Connor's Proposed Modifications of the Lemon Test for Establishment Clause Violations, 1986 B.Y.U.L.Rev. 465; Marshall, "We Know It When We [p629] See It": The Supreme Court and Establishment, 59 S. Cal.L.Rev. 495 (1986); Developments in the Law 1647. I also remain convinced that the endorsement test is capable of consistent application. Indeed, it is notable that the three Circuit courts which have considered challenges to the display of a creche standing alone at city hall have each concluded, relying in part on endorsement analysis, that such a practice sends a message to nonadherents of Christianity that they are outsiders in the political community. See 842 F.2d 655 (CA3 1988); American Jewish Congress v. Chicago, 827 F.2d 120, 127-128 (CA7 1987); ACLU v. Birmingham, 791 F.2d 1561, 1566-1567 (CA6), cert. denied, 479 U.S. 939 (1986). See also Friedman v. Board of County Commissioners of Bernalillo County, 781 F.2d 777, 780-782 (CA10 1985) (en banc), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1169 (1986) (county seal including Latin cross and Spanish motto translated as "With This We Conquer," conveys a message of endorsement of Christianity). To be sure, the endorsement test depends on a sensitivity to the unique circumstances and context of a particular challenged practice and, like any test that is sensitive to context, it may not always yield results with unanimous agreement at the margins. But that is true of many standards in constitutional law, and even the modified coercion test offered by JUSTICE KENNEDY involves judgment and hard choices at the margin.


Proximity matters apparently. Just because you have the secular symbols does not mean anything if they are not close enough to make an overall display. Unfortunately, since I don't have the map of the display, I cannot make a judgment myself, so until then I find the argument valid until proven otherwise based on this case. I am not sure if anyone knows the outline either, but please share if you can. This does not appear to be as cut-and-dry as some people think.



Inuyasha
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13 Dec 2011, 4:04 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
91 wrote:
It is worth remembering that in the case of Lynch v. Donnelly, the Rhode Island Christmas display had a Santa, a tree and a seasons greetings banner along with a nativity and it was ruled by the supreme court to be Constitutional. The Texas has nowmen, gnomes, reindeer, Santa and a Christmas Tree. It also has Kwanzaa and Jewish symbols.


91 somehow forgot to mention Allegheny vs. ACLU in his litany of Supreme Court cases. Based on that case (which is logical to presume this was the court case mentioned by the atheists in that Blaze article, which would make it rather important to this discussion), the argument would be legitimate since the video shows the creche was essentially by itself. The article also shows that the Lynch decision involved private property, not a courthouse lawn. A menorah was also involved in the Allegheny ruling, and allowed to stand due to its proximity to a Christmas tree, which is now considered a secular symbol.


He has not forgotten anything, the Supreme Court did not do a blanket ban on nativity scenes...


HerrGrimm wrote:
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in the Allegheny decision wrote:
In contrast to the creche in Lynch, which was displayed in a private park in the city's commercial district as part of a broader display of traditional secular symbols of the holiday season, this creche stands alone in the county courthouse.


Which is not the case here because other groups have symbols up at the courthouse in this case.

HerrGrimm wrote:
The final part of the Allegheny decision wrote:
This recognition that the more religious [p637] alternative may, depending on the circumstances, convey a message that is least likely to implicate Establishment Clause concerns is an excellent example of the need to focus on the specific practice in question in its particular physical setting and context in determining whether government has conveyed or attempted to convey a message that religion or a particular religious belief is favored or preferred.


Again, it looks like it stands alone in the video, leading to an assumption that one religion might be favored. In this article on the Establishment clause, instead of using the Lemon Test like in Lynch or Kennedy's (dissenting) coercion test in Part II of the Allegheny decision, the Endorsement Test, made by O'Connor, would now usually make this judgment (which is why I did not have any quotes from Kennedy concerning the test). However:

Justices O'Connor, Brennan, and Stevens wrote:
I continue to believe that the endorsement test asks the right question about governmental practices challenged on Establishment Clause grounds, including challenged practices involving the display of religious symbols. Moreover, commentators in the scholarly literature have found merit in the approach. See, e.g., Beschle, supra, at 174; Comment, Lemon Reconstituted: Justice O'Connor's Proposed Modifications of the Lemon Test for Establishment Clause Violations, 1986 B.Y.U.L.Rev. 465; Marshall, "We Know It When We [p629] See It": The Supreme Court and Establishment, 59 S. Cal.L.Rev. 495 (1986); Developments in the Law 1647. I also remain convinced that the endorsement test is capable of consistent application. Indeed, it is notable that the three Circuit courts which have considered challenges to the display of a creche standing alone at city hall have each concluded, relying in part on endorsement analysis, that such a practice sends a message to nonadherents of Christianity that they are outsiders in the political community. See 842 F.2d 655 (CA3 1988); American Jewish Congress v. Chicago, 827 F.2d 120, 127-128 (CA7 1987); ACLU v. Birmingham, 791 F.2d 1561, 1566-1567 (CA6), cert. denied, 479 U.S. 939 (1986). See also Friedman v. Board of County Commissioners of Bernalillo County, 781 F.2d 777, 780-782 (CA10 1985) (en banc), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1169 (1986) (county seal including Latin cross and Spanish motto translated as "With This We Conquer," conveys a message of endorsement of Christianity). To be sure, the endorsement test depends on a sensitivity to the unique circumstances and context of a particular challenged practice and, like any test that is sensitive to context, it may not always yield results with unanimous agreement at the margins. But that is true of many standards in constitutional law, and even the modified coercion test offered by JUSTICE KENNEDY involves judgment and hard choices at the margin.


Proximity matters apparently. Just because you have the secular symbols does not mean anything if they are not close enough to make an overall display. Unfortunately, since I don't have the map of the display, I cannot make a judgment myself, so until then I find the argument valid until proven otherwise based on this case. I am not sure if anyone knows the outline either, but please share if you can.


Apparently, from what I've read this all isn't this issue. What Atheists are up in arms over is that the nativity scene, specifically is even allowed there at all, and the fact they can't put up their stuff right on top of the nativity scene to mock Christians specifically, which shows how the Atheist group is just trying to mock and offend people.



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13 Dec 2011, 4:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
He has not forgotten anything, the Supreme Court did not do a blanket ban on nativity scenes...


Let him speak for himself. He didn't mention the case at all when he carpet-bombed the thread with Supreme Court references.

Inuyasha wrote:
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in the Allegheny decision wrote:
In contrast to the creche in Lynch, which was displayed in a private park in the city's commercial district as part of a broader display of traditional secular symbols of the holiday season, this creche stands alone in the county courthouse.


Which is not the case here because other groups have symbols up at the courthouse in this case.


See below for my quote again. I don't think you read my post given how fast you responded.

HerrGrimm wrote:
Proximity matters apparently. Just because you have the secular symbols does not mean anything if they are not close enough to make an overall display. Unfortunately, since I don't have the map of the display, I cannot make a judgment myself, so until then I find the argument valid until proven otherwise based on this case. I am not sure if anyone knows the outline either, but please share if you can.


Inuyasha wrote:
Apparently, from what I've read this all isn't this issue. What Atheists are up in arms over is that the nativity scene, specifically is even allowed there at all, and the fact they can't put up their stuff right on top of the nativity scene to mock Christians specifically, which shows how the Atheist group is just trying to mock and offend people.


I am sure you meant to say Christians instead of people. Explain how a sign being offensive and insulting (if that) violates your rights in America. I am dead serious. Name a couple cases where "it is offensive and insulting" is a legitimate reason to suppress someone expressing themselves in this country. The Westboro Baptist Church can still protest. It did not happen in Skokie, where the Supreme Court ruled that brandishing a swastika is their right to do. In fact, the Nazis decided to march in Skokie as retaliation for not being able to march in Chicago, so you would think that would be worse. You're allowed to desecrate the flag, and you're allowed to not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance or the National Anthem, which would probably be "offensive" to most Americans. Because it is "offensive and insulting" does not mean they cannot express themselves. There is no argument that secular symbols are allowed, right? That includes the ones you don't like.

EDIT: My original post looks different from the one in Inuyasha's response because I realized Part II was not Justice Kennedy writing. I changed it while Inuyasha was writing, so that is why there is no "Edited by HerrGrimm ____ times" in my first post. Which makes me wonder how Inuyasha read that much in a short amount of time. In fact, after I finished my post and my corrections he was still in the PPR main forum (his name comes up in that little overhead).



Inuyasha
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13 Dec 2011, 4:47 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
EDIT: My original post looks different from the one in Inuyasha's response because I realized Part II was not Justice Kennedy writing. I changed it while Inuyasha was writing, so that is why there is no "Edited by HerrGrimm ____ times" in my first post. Which makes me wonder how Inuyasha read that much in a short amount of time. In fact, after I finished my post and my corrections he was still in the PPR main forum (his name comes up in that little overhead).


I am a fast reader, also the name coming up in the little overhead means I'm viewing something in this forum, which just happened to be this topic thread.



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13 Dec 2011, 4:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I am a fast reader, also the name coming up in the little overhead means I'm viewing something in this forum, which just happened to be this topic thread.


Considering the fact I have no further proof of anything else, I will have to take your word for it (for now).



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13 Dec 2011, 5:15 pm

91 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Which is a little different from a seasonal display.


Justice Alito in his writing concurrence considered temporary displays to be different, in that the government was not obligated to be more careful in selecting permanent monuments. He also mentioned that displays that are permanent were more likely to be associated with their owners. "even long winded speakers eventually go home with their leaflets and holiday displays are taken down; but, permanent monuments endure and are obviously associated with their owners", from this we can reasonably infer that temporary events and displays are less associated with the land they are on than permanent ones.

blauSamstag wrote:
Also, those Summum guys make mormons look perfectly normal. And they're not just a minority constituent, they're small enough to disappear as a rounding error.


I am sure Henderson County, Texas is overflowing with Atheists.


Granted it's not a strong position to take, but when accepting gifts of permanent monuments, I think it's reasonable to reject monuments from tiny, insignificant fringe groups.

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Speaking as an atheist, I find this to be a positive and life-affirming message.


Strange, I don't think many people would find a sentence with the world 'enslave' in it to be life-affirming.


Certainly not life-affirming if you have been enslaved, no.



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13 Dec 2011, 5:34 pm

More ideas for a truly atheist Christmas decoration:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... d-atheist/

Image
Image
Image


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MarcusTulliusCicero
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13 Dec 2011, 5:36 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
More ideas for a truly atheist Christmas decoration:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... d-atheist/

Image
Image
Image


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13 Dec 2011, 6:02 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
[...]

Image

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13 Dec 2011, 6:15 pm

I want a star powerup. In a world full of fake gods. The star powerup has given me invulnerability in the times I needed it the most.


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