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Did Jesus or His followers start a new religion?

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Vigilans
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10 Apr 2012, 1:12 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


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Kraichgauer
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10 Apr 2012, 1:49 pm

Jesus and his followers believed they were fulfilling Hebrew scripture. As most Jews had chosen not to take part in this movement, and that especially after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, Christianity became acculturated to Non-Jewish peoples, Christianity and Judaism became two different religions. But both clearly have common origins.

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10 Apr 2012, 2:07 pm

Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


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10 Apr 2012, 2:25 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?


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10 Apr 2012, 2:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Joshua bar Yosef unfortunately is portrayed in art work as a Gentile by later European artists who could not bear the thought of a Jewish looking Jesus.



Very true. But this likeness makes a change -- a computer extrapolation from the Shroud of Turin:

Image


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10 Apr 2012, 2:28 pm

Ragtime wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joshua bar Yosef unfortunately is portrayed in art work as a Gentile by later European artists who could not bear the thought of a Jewish looking Jesus.



Very true. But this likeness makes a change -- a computer extrapolation from the Shroud of Turin:

Image


The shroud that is a hoax?


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10 Apr 2012, 2:35 pm

I personally have never found the shroud to be convincing.
The History Channel has done at least a couple documentaries on how the image on the shroud could have been created. One of them was even presented as a very early, primitive form of photography that may have been done by non other than Leonardo DaVinci.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Ragtime
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10 Apr 2012, 2:43 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?


(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)

There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives "...they will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zech 12:10)

So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?


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Last edited by Ragtime on 10 Apr 2012, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Apr 2012, 2:48 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I personally have never found the shroud to be convincing.
The History Channel has done at least a couple documentaries on how the image on the shroud could have been created. One of them was even presented as a very early, primitive form of photography that may have been done by non other than Leonardo DaVinci.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I personally have researched it a lot, and find it very compelling, but it whether it's real or not doesn't put any onus on any believer. I have both deniers and accepters of the authenticity of the shroud among my Christian friends. The last thing we want is to start worshiping a religious article. (No offense to Catholics, who, biblically, shouldn't be doing that either).


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10 Apr 2012, 2:52 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joshua bar Yosef unfortunately is portrayed in art work as a Gentile by later European artists who could not bear the thought of a Jewish looking Jesus.



Very true. But this likeness makes a change -- a computer extrapolation from the Shroud of Turin:

Image


The shroud that is a hoax?


Whether it is or isn't a hoax (which I don't believe it is) is beside the point. I present yet another image of what Jesus might have looked like -- which is all we'll ever have. Even if the shroud is real, data gaps still needed to be filled when creating this computer image. I watched a two-hour special on how they did it.


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10 Apr 2012, 3:15 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?


(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)

There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?


In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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10 Apr 2012, 3:26 pm

Oh, and I would have put this in my OP if I had thought of it:


John 4:19-22:

Quote:
“Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.


Jesus affirming to a Gentile that both He and His message are Jewish.


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10 Apr 2012, 3:30 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joshua bar Yosef unfortunately is portrayed in art work as a Gentile by later European artists who could not bear the thought of a Jewish looking Jesus.



Very true. But this likeness makes a change -- a computer extrapolation from the Shroud of Turin:

Image


The shroud that is a hoax?


It has been carbon date to the 13th century.

ruveyn



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10 Apr 2012, 3:35 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?


(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)

There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?


In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well, you know I disagree very much with that tradition. And it's really a scary one, because, if mistaken in that doctrine, that means the Church is supplanting Israel -- taking away their inheritance. So it's a doctrine that, if one believes it to be wrong -- as I do -- has serious negative implications. It also allows for more anti-Semitism, because it lowers the Jews from there Scriptural status of being God's Chosen People, to being fine to pick on. But picking on the Jews is dangerous, because God many times in Scripture promises severe vengeance on those who do.


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10 Apr 2012, 3:38 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Jesus affirming to a Gentile that both He and His message are Jewish.


In which case, The Trinity is bogus. The Torah is clear on one thing: God is One not many.

It is also clear on another thing: God is not a man, God is not flesh, God is completely other.

ruveyn



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10 Apr 2012, 5:40 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.


Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?


Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.

The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.


So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?


(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)

There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?


In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well, you know I disagree very much with that tradition. And it's really a scary one, because, if mistaken in that doctrine, that means the Church is supplanting Israel -- taking away their inheritance. So it's a doctrine that, if one believes it to be wrong -- as I do -- has serious negative implications. It also allows for more anti-Semitism, because it lowers the Jews from there Scriptural status of being God's Chosen People, to being fine to pick on. But picking on the Jews is dangerous, because God many times in Scripture promises severe vengeance on those who do.


We don't believe we're supplanting Israel, as the blessing to Israel was never a matter of race, but of faith. Therefore, we believe that this blessing is connected to anyone who follows Christ - Gentile or Jew.
And I challenge anyone to prove that mainline denominations today who follow this theology are hot beds of Antisemitism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer