Is organised religion a general enemy of humanity?
ripped wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
ripped wrote:
Hows things at home Modus?
I'm well, actualy. But I've been in hell before. But it's not just me. Hundreds of millions who suffer horrors every day. There's thousands of different illnesses, millions going through hunger, people with broken hearts and people with hearts to be broken when the time comes, not just by romantic love but also by death of parents and death of children and death of siblings. Death itself is uncertain and affects us all. We're all going through death. And even when normal happiness arise it's a form of tension. Oh there's also old age for those who survive. Last but not the least there's all the horror of war.
If there is a god who is all knowing and all powerful and created all this he is indeed the supreme fascist, the most despicable horrible abject excuse for a being.
Had you considered a career as a lifeline telephone councillor?
Or as a motivational speaker perhaps?
There are also good things in life. The transitory happiness is enough to keep me alive. And I love life. However, if there is a god who created all of the above misery and much more that I didn't describe, I'm not the least bit interested in him. If that's what he's capable of, he can enjoy the company of the god fearing people who kiss his a**..
ripped wrote:
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
No, it is YOU who is wrong about this. You continue to display not only your ignorance of the vast amounts of evidence of many different types that all clearly show we share common ancestry with apes and other living forms, but also your ignorance of what science is and how it works including the definitions of scientific law compared to scientific theory.
Evolution is an observed testable demonstrable FACT of nature. There are theories of evolution to explain this fact. Gravity is an observed testable demonstrable fact of nature too. There are other theories to explain the fact of gravity. If you don't like reality, too bad. It is not going to go away no matter how willfully ignorant of it you choose to be.
And in this 21st century, there is NO EXCUSE for anyone who has access to the internet to have such abysmal ignorance on this subject. With all the information available to you 24/7 from all over the world, you are apparently limiting yourself to sources that ignore, deny or distort the evidence for evolution. Whatever your sources of information, they are wrong. Anyone (even you) can easily see with only a few minutes research that they are wrong. You are being lied to by sources you trust.
Evolution is an observed testable demonstrable FACT of nature. There are theories of evolution to explain this fact. Gravity is an observed testable demonstrable fact of nature too. There are other theories to explain the fact of gravity. If you don't like reality, too bad. It is not going to go away no matter how willfully ignorant of it you choose to be.
And in this 21st century, there is NO EXCUSE for anyone who has access to the internet to have such abysmal ignorance on this subject. With all the information available to you 24/7 from all over the world, you are apparently limiting yourself to sources that ignore, deny or distort the evidence for evolution. Whatever your sources of information, they are wrong. Anyone (even you) can easily see with only a few minutes research that they are wrong. You are being lied to by sources you trust.
Gravity is explained by Newton's Laws.
Where Charles Darwin's theory of evolution falls down is when the attempt is made to irrefutably directly link Homo Sapiens-Sapiens with the varieties and ancestors of Archaic sapiens which we displaced.
Which is to say Darwin's theory is correct, except for Homo Sapiens-Sapiens.
Again you show your ignorance. While Newton's explanation of gravity works at our everyday scale of existence, it has been shown that Einstein's explanation is more accurate. Darwin's theory of evolution has been greatly expanded and supported the past 150 years. Even if we might not yet be able to identify if we have found a direct ancestral species for one particular time in our lineage, we have most definitely found many transitional forms from ape to man of the right age in the right sequence who are most definitely at the very least close cousins to us.
The genetic evidence for humans having common ancestry with chimpanzees (for example) is practically a smoking gun. Human chromosome 2 shows many clear signs of being two ape chromosomes fused together end to end, and the corresponding chromosomes in chimps have been found. There are also patterns of the placement of endogenous retroviruses in the DNA of related species, and pseudogenes, in patterns known as nested hierarchies when you are comparing the DNA of different species. These patterns of nested hierarchies only make sense if evolution happens, and they are supported by the fossil record and by the physical characteristics and geographical distribution of living species. EXPLAIN THAT!! !! !! !
It seems you are willing to concede evolution is a fact for all species (even older homo species) except for modern humans. Why? All the scientific evidence of the physical world clearly shows we are biologically related to monkeys, that we share a common ancestor with them and other living things. As I asked in an Evolution song I wrote about this in 1991, "Could it be you're too proud to admit you're related to a monkey? Don't forget pride is one of the seven deadly sins." I also said: "The only problem is your interpretation. Evolution is the better explanation of overwhelming evidence that evolution is a fact of nature. You'll just have to face the fact: You're related to a monkey!"
_________________
"When you ride over sharps, you get flats!"--The Bicycling Guitarist, May 13, 2008
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
" You'll just have to face the fact: You're related to a monkey!"
And I take you as living proof of that.
Yes, we are constructed from the same primordial DNA. My contention is that there has been an interference in the natural evolutionary process with regard to our species alone, projecting our development so incredibly far in front of what evolution would have achieved during the same time period.
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
salad wrote:
Islam actually tells us not to believe in the theory of evolution, but there are aspects of evolution that we believe. we believe in some and reject some. but it's actually beneficial to learn about it to debate other atheists about the topic. and excuse me, but evolution is a THEORY thus not everything about it is correct. we believe in microevolution and other parts of evolution, but no way do we believe that we came from monkeys or any of that nonsense. many scientists have proved his theory as a fallacy and incorrect so why must we accept it as true? a theory isn't a law. denying the law of gravity is totally different than denying the THEORY of evolution.
That is incredibly IGNORANT and just plain wrong. Evolution is as much a fact of nature as gravity is, and we actually understand more about the mechanisms of evolution than we do for gravity. You also apparently don't understand what theory means in science. A theory is stronger than a law because instead of being merely descriptive a theory provides testable predictions. A theory such as evolution must be supported by all the evidence and contradicted by none, or else it is modified or discarded. Evolution quite possibly has more evidence of more different types supporting it than any other idea in science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed or lying to you.
There was a conference recently in England I read about in the news where many important Muslim clerics discussed this topic, and for a change there was some openness to acknowledging REALITY! Of course there are still some fundamentalist idiots who insist on denying what is demonstrably real.
salad, IF you are a sincere seeker of truth you really should educate yourself on this subject instead of spreading misinformation.
a theory can be proven wrong. and i didnt say i disbelieve in everything regarding evolution, but some parts i reject, especially humans evolving from monkeys. and i can't believe you're forcing your beliefs on me. the irony. I've studied evolution last year in 8th grade. I'm familiar with it. however i believe in parts and reject parts.
ripped wrote:
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
" You'll just have to face the fact: You're related to a monkey!"
And I take you as living proof of that.
Yes, we are constructed from the same primordial DNA. My contention is that there has been an interference in the natural evolutionary process with regard to our species alone, projecting our development so incredibly far in front of what evolution would have achieved during the same time period.
Newton's formula implies that only things with mass are affected by gravity, which is incorrect. You are wrong about gravity, so why should I trust your opinion about the evolution of our species? What do you base that opinion on? What facts, measurements, data that can be shared with others and that they can also see for themselves without having to take anyone else's word for it?
I think it is just wishful thinking on your part, that you feel a need for humans to be "special." That type of thinking seems rather arrogant to me. It's not like humans are the "most evolved" species either as some people would like to think or claim. For example, since diverging from a common ancestor with chimps some six to eight million years ago, the chimp DNA has undergone more changes than the human DNA has from that common ancestor, so in a sense you could say the chimps have evolved MORE than their human cousins. OTOH, even if the changes to our DNA have been smaller, they have been mighty.
Are you just saying that at some point God reached a finger into some germ cell to tweak the molecules just so to make us the way we are today? Obviously there is no way to test that, but it still remains a fact that we share a common ancestor with chimps and other living things, that our great great (insert many greats here) grandparents were the SAME as theirs. That is what many lines of evidence clearly show, and if it ain't true, then God must be one hell of a prankster to plant SO MUCH false evidence to trick us.
_________________
"When you ride over sharps, you get flats!"--The Bicycling Guitarist, May 13, 2008
salad wrote:
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
salad wrote:
Islam actually tells us not to believe in the theory of evolution, but there are aspects of evolution that we believe. we believe in some and reject some. but it's actually beneficial to learn about it to debate other atheists about the topic. and excuse me, but evolution is a THEORY thus not everything about it is correct. we believe in microevolution and other parts of evolution, but no way do we believe that we came from monkeys or any of that nonsense. many scientists have proved his theory as a fallacy and incorrect so why must we accept it as true? a theory isn't a law. denying the law of gravity is totally different than denying the THEORY of evolution.
That is incredibly IGNORANT and just plain wrong. Evolution is as much a fact of nature as gravity is, and we actually understand more about the mechanisms of evolution than we do for gravity. You also apparently don't understand what theory means in science. A theory is stronger than a law because instead of being merely descriptive a theory provides testable predictions. A theory such as evolution must be supported by all the evidence and contradicted by none, or else it is modified or discarded. Evolution quite possibly has more evidence of more different types supporting it than any other idea in science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed or lying to you.
There was a conference recently in England I read about in the news where many important Muslim clerics discussed this topic, and for a change there was some openness to acknowledging REALITY! Of course there are still some fundamentalist idiots who insist on denying what is demonstrably real.
salad, IF you are a sincere seeker of truth you really should educate yourself on this subject instead of spreading misinformation.
a theory can be proven wrong. and i didnt say i disbelieve in everything regarding evolution, but some parts i reject, especially humans evolving from monkeys. and i can't believe you're forcing your beliefs on me. the irony. I've studied evolution last year in 8th grade. I'm familiar with it. however i believe in parts and reject parts.
Humans didn't evolve from monkeys. I bet you failed that subject.
salad wrote:
a theory can be proven wrong. and i didnt say i disbelieve in everything regarding evolution, but some parts i reject, especially humans evolving from monkeys. and i can't believe you're forcing your beliefs on me. the irony. I've studied evolution last year in 8th grade. I'm familiar with it. however i believe in parts and reject parts.
Yes of course. Anything in science has to be falsifiable or it ain't science. I am not forcing my beliefs on you. If you want to wallow in ignorance, be my guest. Go right ahead. You studied it in 8th grade, last year? I have been studying this intensely on my own for the past forty years. I can tell I know a bit more about this subject than you do, but you have access to the internet. If you really are interested in knowing more about this or any other subject, nobody is stopping you. I encourage it!
While I am not forcing my beliefs on you, in the interest of what is best for humanity and the planet I will not let ignorant factually incorrect statements about this subject go unchallenged. Oh if you post reply after reply to wear me down, sooner or later I will stop playing your game (probably sooner), but for at least the first few statements denying reality I will laugh and point out that the emperor has no clothes.
Also, a point of semantics, I do not "believe" in evolution. I accept it as a fact of nature because of the overwhelming evidence of many different types that this is so. It is a stupid question to ask anyone whether or not they "believe" in evolution. A better question would be to ask if they accept the fact evolution happens, and if not, why not?
_________________
"When you ride over sharps, you get flats!"--The Bicycling Guitarist, May 13, 2008
puddingmouse wrote:
Venger wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Venger wrote:
The first book of the christian Holy Bible talks about evolution in a symbolic way. That's how I interpret it at least.
Uh, no. That would otherwise be very fascinating and a reason to consider the Bible as God's actual word.
Most Atheists probably take the bible literally which is part of the reason they dismiss it as complete fiction in the first place.
I do think the bible was mostly intended to be read as a literal document (I'm an atheist), but some parts of it were probably intended to be read as symbolic.
Christians have the extremely hard task of working out which is which; that's why some take the easy way out and claim that it's all meant to be taken literally. I'm glad my belief system doesn't depend on interpreting such a difficult text, any more.
Most of the stories in the Old Testament are allegorical. There is broad consensus among biblical scholars on which parts of the bible are figurative and literal, even if Christians are split. Most hermeneutical interpretations of the OT are the same.
Not even evangelicals read the entire thing 99% literally. The parables of Jesus are an obvious example.
Telekon wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Venger wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Venger wrote:
The first book of the christian Holy Bible talks about evolution in a symbolic way. That's how I interpret it at least.
Uh, no. That would otherwise be very fascinating and a reason to consider the Bible as God's actual word.
Most Atheists probably take the bible literally which is part of the reason they dismiss it as complete fiction in the first place.
I do think the bible was mostly intended to be read as a literal document (I'm an atheist), but some parts of it were probably intended to be read as symbolic.
Christians have the extremely hard task of working out which is which; that's why some take the easy way out and claim that it's all meant to be taken literally. I'm glad my belief system doesn't depend on interpreting such a difficult text, any more.
Most of the stories in the Old Testament are allegorical. There is broad consensus among biblical scholars on which parts of the bible are figurative and literal, even if Christians are split. Most hermeneutical interpretations of the OT are the same.
Not even evangelicals read the entire thing 99% literally. The parables of Jesus are an obvious example.
Time supposedly passes much faster from God's perspective, so the creation in 7 days story is probably referring to millions or billions of years.
Telekon wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Venger wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Venger wrote:
The first book of the christian Holy Bible talks about evolution in a symbolic way. That's how I interpret it at least.
Uh, no. That would otherwise be very fascinating and a reason to consider the Bible as God's actual word.
Most Atheists probably take the bible literally which is part of the reason they dismiss it as complete fiction in the first place.
I do think the bible was mostly intended to be read as a literal document (I'm an atheist), but some parts of it were probably intended to be read as symbolic.
Christians have the extremely hard task of working out which is which; that's why some take the easy way out and claim that it's all meant to be taken literally. I'm glad my belief system doesn't depend on interpreting such a difficult text, any more.
Most of the stories in the Old Testament are allegorical. There is broad consensus among biblical scholars on which parts of the bible are figurative and literal, even if Christians are split. Most hermeneutical interpretations of the OT are the same.
Not even evangelicals read the entire thing 99% literally. The parables of Jesus are an obvious example.
Then why are there so many denominations in Christianity? You can't say it's wholly for extra-biblical reasons because there are so many different churches that are broadly Protestant that claim the Bible itself is the sole or main basis for their beliefs.
puddingmouse wrote:
Then why are there so many denominations in Christianity? You can't say it's wholly for extra-biblical reasons because there are so many different churches that are broadly Protestant that claim the Bible itself is the sole or main basis for their beliefs.
There is a logical curiosity at the bottom of that. In a theory whose axioms are contradictory, any possible conclusion follows. Then the different protestant followers chose, among what follows from contradiction what they like.
Of course this is just a toungue in cheek comment but it has some truth to it. The bilbe has so many contradictions that the different protestant churches choose between two contradictory statements those that suits them best.
Telekon wrote:
Most of the stories in the Old Testament are allegorical.
The Bible is a collection of apocryphal accounts that have been embellished beyond what any physical evidence would normally allow; and that were passed down verbally for decades - or even centuries - before being recorded in writing to justify patriarchal imperialism by genocide, slavery, and the subjugation of women as second-class citizens.
Telekon wrote:
There is broad consensus among biblical scholars on which parts of the bible are figurative and literal, even if Christians are split. Most hermeneutic interpretations of the OT are the same. Not even evangelicals read the entire thing 99% literally. The parables of Jesus are an obvious example.
People take literally from the Bible whatever they need to as the situation requires - Situational Literalism being the Christian application of Confirmation Bias.
_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
