Atheists are no better than religious nuts

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AspE
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04 Nov 2014, 10:35 am

wittgenstein wrote:

So you agree with me that ISIS is Muslim in name only!
And you had the opposite opinion just 4 posts ago. What changed your mind?
Good grief, I gave you the benefit of the doubt but now I realize that you are an unrepentant bigot. So Sufi * etc are all genocidal rapists, its part of Muslim doctrine!

* You really need to be more informed. Even anti-semitism is not part of Muslim doctrine. Just look at the middle ages. While we the "civilized " west had pogroms the Muslims respected Jews.
So to you ISIS, Rumi, the great Islamic philosophers,etc are all the same! I would add a smile icon to denote sarcasm but such a position is too repugnant for even a sarcastic smile.

I'm not a bigot, since religion isn't some immutable trait. And I don't hate Muslims, just Islam. Just like I don't hate Germans, I hate Nazism. Jews were sometimes tolerated in Islamic societies, but always as a second-class citizen, they had to pay a tax, generally they weren't allowed weapons or to ride animals. Mistrust of Jews is part of the Quran. My point is that anyone can say their religion is anything. In the absence of a Pope, which Islam doesn't have, Islam is whatever a Muslim interprets it to be. ISIS feels that Islam is under attack, which releases from normal considerations. Plenty of bad things are condoned in Islam as long as it's part of warfare.

wittgenstein
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04 Nov 2014, 7:58 pm

So you are saying that ISIS's understanding of the Koran is as legitimate as any? Even mine (which has at least academic scholarship behind it)?
You keep contradicting yourself,sir.
Good strategy tho. When logic proves your position silly, abandon logic!

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funeralxempire
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04 Nov 2014, 8:14 pm

I haven't heard of atheists committing mass-killing in the name of atheism.

They've done it in the name of other things before (socialism, republicanism, other philosophical or political ideals), but never specifically in the name of atheism.
Most religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism) have had religious extremists commit violence in the name of that religion.

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dimwit79
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04 Nov 2014, 8:23 pm

The funniest thing about atheists is that they spend as much time thinking about god as a member of the clergy. If you think about it enough to identify with being an atheist it's practically all you think about.

If you don't believe in god, just stop talking about it.

On the subject, i saw this a while back.

http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_ ... oke-139982

have to say, the title does take a while to recover from being an aspie and all. Basically it says we're all wired to think about god and none of us are atheists because we all think about it. Hence atheists dont exist.

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04 Nov 2014, 8:29 pm

dimwit79 wrote:

Funny, unless someone specifically mentions the concept of god(s) the only time I think about such ideas is when considering why other people feel the need to believe in the supernatural and I don't.

While I don't doubt the article is largely correct, there are most certainly people who are atheists, not because they consciously reject the notion of deities, but because the very concept of a deity is inconceivable to them.

AspE
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05 Nov 2014, 12:12 am

dimwit79 wrote:

Um, no I won't stop talking about it. Religion still exists, and it's a problem.

AspE
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05 Nov 2014, 12:15 am

wittgenstein wrote:

I'm saying their interpretation of the Quran can be legitimately called a sect of Islam. I don't know how academic they are about it. Are you saying their religion doesn't exist?

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05 Nov 2014, 6:16 am

AspE wrote:

Lukecash12 wrote:

AspE wrote:

wittgenstein wrote:

True but that does not mean that a Hitler does not occasionally emerge.ISIS for example, is Muslim in name only. They are almost universally hated by Muslims around the world.
Yep, they regurgitate the Koran but they have no understanding of it.

Who put you in charge of deciding who is a Muslim? Upon who's authority are you deciding that their interpretation of the Koran is wrong? ISIS is profoundly Islamic. Everything they say and do is religious in nature. It's their primary motivation.

Religious does not equal Islamic. The Hadiths are a tradition considered to have equal standing with the Koran (yes folks, go read about it if you don't believe me), and while the Koran is not always so clear on the issue of violence the Hadiths tend to be explicit in their condemnation towards Muslims who are violent towards other Muslims that are not apostates. By definition ISIS is a group of apostates and they are profoundly not Islamic.

They would say the Muslims they kill are apostates.

Saying your opponents are apostates does not mean that you square with the Quran and Hadiths. The three mainstream branches of Islam would never agree that ISIS adheres to Islamic values. It's so irrespective of the Quran that they clearly aren't making much effort to interpret it at all, instead a better observation would be that they have cultural similarities and share some values, because they certainly aren't worshiping the same Allah.

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05 Nov 2014, 6:23 am

funeralxempire wrote:

That is because atheism itself isn't a religion. It is one philosophical stance and it only pertains to one subject. Christians didn't kill during the crusades for theism. They killed because of theological issues. There are also atheist religions, for example LaVeyan Satanism, a number of Hindu and Bhuddist sects, animists, and a whole host of others. Religion doesn't necessarily involve theology at all, and there is also such a thing as state religion. North Korea is a great example as the state is atheist and the people worship the dictator. So it seems that atheists aren't exempt from religious killing.

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Last edited by Lukecash12 on 05 Nov 2014, 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lukecash12
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05 Nov 2014, 6:27 am

AspE wrote:

dimwit79 wrote:

Um, no I won't stop talking about it. Religion still exists, and it's a problem.

Sterilize theistic religion and you'll still find the same basic problems. As I've said a number of times before, societies require excessive violence in order to function. Go ahead and find me a few examples of a large government from the last few thousand years that disproves my point. Even tribes and clans function by dehumanizing other groups and antagonizing them.

If we were to rid ourselves of theistic religion there would still be widespread violence and war, regimes like the Khmer Rouge would still be a real possibility. There will always be resources to compete over, and there will always be internal problems within a society that can be solved by focusing attention elsewhere.

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wittgenstein
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05 Nov 2014, 7:17 am

AspE wrote:

wittgenstein wrote:

I'm saying their interpretation of the Quran can be legitimately called a sect of Islam. I don't know how academic they are about it. Are you saying their religion doesn't exist?

No, you are saying that because according to you a person belongs to a religion simply by saying they belong to that religion. * For example, ISIS is Muslim (according to you) even tho it rejects the teachings of the Koran.
I am an agnostic atheist, however I would not call a person a Muslim (or Christian, or Jew) that thinks Muhammad (or Jesus) recommend rape as a noble path to God.
* So if I call myself an Aztec,that is my religion even tho I know very little about it?

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05 Nov 2014, 12:29 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

100% correct.

Except it's spelled Buddhist.

AspE
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05 Nov 2014, 12:35 pm

wittgenstein wrote:

AspE wrote:

wittgenstein wrote:

I'm saying their interpretation of the Quran can be legitimately called a sect of Islam. I don't know how academic they are about it. Are you saying their religion doesn't exist?

They do not reject the teachings of the Quran. In fact they are Wahhabists like those in Saudi Arabia, maybe you think the Saudis aren't true Muslims either? Should I find texts that support raping captive women? The leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, has a PhD in Islamic studies from the University of Baghdad. They are mirroring the actions of Mohammed himself, who established an Islamic state through warfare. They are like American fundamentalists, or the KKK. They may not share a version of Islam that most Muslims believe, but there is no central authority in Islam to contradict them in any formal sense.

Edit: Here you go, Chapter 4 of the Quran. Mohammed takes care of his warriors, doing the Lord's business, far from home...

"24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you..."

Here's a Hadith which explains 4:24:

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]
Abu Dawud 2:2150

And in modern times:
http://islamqa.info/en/10382

AspE
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05 Nov 2014, 1:24 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:

AspE wrote:

dimwit79 wrote:

Um, no I won't stop talking about it. Religion still exists, and it's a problem.

Excessive violence is very much not necessary for a functioning society. Violence may be, since rules must be enforced somehow, and not everyone wants to follow the rules. But the fact that religions tend to provide justification for things people wanted to do anyway is part of the problem of religion. Items of faith cannot be questioned by the faithful. Religion places these ancillary reasons beyond reason. If the Crusades were explained as just some kind of trade dispute, it would not have inspired so many volunteers. Yes, there would still be war if religion was abandoned, but we would be able to discuss the issues in a rational way. Religion makes everything worse. And by the way, sometimes it is all about religion and nothing else.

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05 Nov 2014, 1:27 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Right, the issue isn't just religion, which can be atheistic, but faith. Buddhists in Japan took part in war and justified the atrocities they committed through their religious teaching.

AspE
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05 Nov 2014, 1:28 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:

...because they certainly aren't worshiping the same Allah.

That's hilarious. They pray 5 times a day towards Mecca, and they aren't the same?

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