On punching Nazis
02 Feb 2017, 6:29 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
the_phoenix wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Justifying this type of political violence anywhere justifies it everywhere, it's pretty ironic that these same people claim to be protesting in the name of freedom of speech are the ones physically attacking people because they don't like their opinions as detestable as they are.
Exactly.
Well perhaps they shouldn't encourage political violence against groups of people out side white Christian conservatives. I don't condone going up and hitting some random neo-nazi, but if they're verbally and/or physically harassing you or others then yes I fully support whatever person punches them in the face.
That hardly justifies all violence resulting at all from politics. And out of curiosity you think it would be so wrong to punch an islamic extremist sympathizer if they were spewing a bunch of extremist bullcrap at you? Would the rights figurative heart be figuratively bleeding so much for that hypothetical extremist?
Sorry that I missed seeing your post earlier.
Whether someone is a neo-Nazi, an Islamic extremist sympathizer, or whoever ... I would not condone violence against him or her simply because that person was peacefully expressing their views ... even if yelling random nasty things were involved.
Now you're adding another factor into the mix ... physical harassment or the threat thereof. At which point, I would say, self-defense is legitimate. If someone threatens me verbally with imminent physical harm, if they come rushing at me to attack or assault me, or if they start swinging, then I have the right to use physical force to protect myself. And again, doesn't matter what the person's ideology is, I have the right to defend myself.
That said, no, I still don't condone punching anyone simply because that person holds a different political or religious belief than I do.
I'll also repost the quote I posted earlier from Tolkien, as it still applies and so bears repeating:
“Eomer said, 'How is a man to judge what to do in such times?'
As he has ever judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one thing among Elves and another among Men.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
...
02 Feb 2017, 7:18 pm
0_equals_true wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But Muslims in the UK are an isolated, ghettoized minority, who cling with dear life to their traditional culture. Here in America, Muslims are much more likely to be assimilated, thus more receptive to the values of liberal democracy.
I'm sorry but you are talking out of your rear.
Muslims are not ghettoized, and there are much bigger minority than in the US due to historic connections. Please get your facts right.
Also you even got the culture and traditions bit wrong too. There are those elder who adhere to traditional culture, and younger that fit into modern society, then you have the youngster whoa re a little be confused and don't fit in either.
There areas where there is separation it is largely through choice much like areas of Detroit which are Somali. However like Detroit these area have had economic decline and are former industrial towns.
However the vast majority of Muslims are not isolated even if they choose to live in areas where their culture is more prevalent. This is no different and less distinct than a China town.
The people who are the most isolated are those that don't speak English like some Imams.
Actually, Bill is correct on this one. British Muslims struggle to integrate compared to their American counterparts, and are less likely to abandon their cultural principles in favour of ours.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04 ... s-warning/
Quote:
One in 25 Muslims (four per cent) said they felt at least some sympathy with people who took part in suicide bombings, while a similar proportion said they had some sympathy with “people who commit terrorist actions as a form of political protest”.
A quarter – 25 per cent – said they could understand why British school girls could be attracted to become “jihadi brides” overseas.
Less than half (47 per cent) agreed that Muslims should do more to tackle the causes of extremism in the Muslim community.
52 per cent believed homosexuality should not be legal in Britain, 39 per cent agreed “wives should always obey their husbands”, and 31 per cent said it was acceptable for a man to have more than one wife.
A quarter – 25 per cent – said they could understand why British school girls could be attracted to become “jihadi brides” overseas.
Less than half (47 per cent) agreed that Muslims should do more to tackle the causes of extremism in the Muslim community.
52 per cent believed homosexuality should not be legal in Britain, 39 per cent agreed “wives should always obey their husbands”, and 31 per cent said it was acceptable for a man to have more than one wife.
On the other hand, 86% "felt a strong sense of belonging to Britain" and 90% "felt a strong sense of belonging to their local area", so a couple more generations might see those figures come down.
Quote:
Mr Phillips, who analysed the poll findings for Channel 4, called for new approaches including limiting the presence of any ethnic minority group in schools to no more than 50 per cent.
The ethnic composition of housing estates should be monitored to prevent them becoming "ghetto villages", he added.
The ethnic composition of housing estates should be monitored to prevent them becoming "ghetto villages", he added.
According to multiple articles and reports from Brits of various backgrounds and ethnicities, there's already a problem - though we're nowhere close to the degree of tension across the rest of Europe.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... n-pictures
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -home.html
Even David Cameron recognised the problem way back in 2006.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/ban-musl ... 64774.html
And from his speech at the Munich Security Conference in 2011.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... conference
Quote:
What I am about to say is drawn from the British experience, but I believe there are general lessons for us all. In the UK , some young men find it hard to identify with the traditional Islam practiced at home by their parents, whose customs can seem staid when transplanted to modern Western countries. But these young men also find it hard to identify with Britain too, because we have allowed the weakening of our collective identity. Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and apart from the mainstream. We’ve failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We’ve even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely counter to our values.
So, when a white person holds objectionable views, racist views for instance, we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious frankly - frankly, even fearful - to stand up to them. The failure, for instance, of some to confront the horrors of forced marriage, the practice where some young girls are bullied and sometimes taken abroad to marry someone when they don’t want to, is a case in point. This hands-off tolerance has only served to reinforce the sense that not enough is shared. And this all leaves some young Muslims feeling rootless. And the search for something to belong to and something to believe in can lead them to this extremist ideology. Now for sure, they don’t turn into terrorists overnight, but what we see - and what we see in so many European countries - is a process of radicalisation.
So, when a white person holds objectionable views, racist views for instance, we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious frankly - frankly, even fearful - to stand up to them. The failure, for instance, of some to confront the horrors of forced marriage, the practice where some young girls are bullied and sometimes taken abroad to marry someone when they don’t want to, is a case in point. This hands-off tolerance has only served to reinforce the sense that not enough is shared. And this all leaves some young Muslims feeling rootless. And the search for something to belong to and something to believe in can lead them to this extremist ideology. Now for sure, they don’t turn into terrorists overnight, but what we see - and what we see in so many European countries - is a process of radicalisation.
The underlined part is describing exactly what Bill referred to, Ghettos.
I'm no fan of David Cameron, but that entire speech is one of the best he gave during his entire tenure as PM, and he's absolutely correct to identify the problem, as well as the cause.
03 Feb 2017, 9:21 am
kraftiekortie wrote:
Aren't Muslims who are into Sufi mysticism of a reformist bent?
That is a bit complicated issue. Sufi Islam is the esoteric branch of Islam and one does not necessary have to be a 'reformist' (depending on how it is defined). René Guénon, a Tradionalist Sufi, had stated that in order to practice Sufi one must also follow the exoteric path of the sharia. I could be wrong however, been some time I ago since I read about him. Also the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran Khomeini was also at least influenced by Sufi teachers. And then there are several others, but I think the point has been made.
CockneyRebel
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03 Feb 2017, 11:26 am
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
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03 Feb 2017, 11:59 am
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Are you talking about people defending Richard Spencer, or are you talking about people defending the right to free speech or to hold and express opinions without being assaulted by criminals because of them?
03 Feb 2017, 5:06 pm
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Their is context to each of those things.
The Neo-Nazi was not assaulting anyone. The shooting in Ferguson was terrible but the policeman may have done it out of fear not hate, the victim had after all done a robbery.
if a Neo Nazi is a narcissist who is incapable of changing their views. Are they still totally responsible for how they think?
If so why should the person deserve to be punched when its not their fault they retain their beliefs?
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03 Feb 2017, 5:17 pm
Shahunshah wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Their is context to each of those things.
The Neo-Nazi was not assaulting anyone. The shooting in Ferguson was terrible but the policeman may have done it out of fear not hate, the victim had after all done a robbery.
if a Neo Nazi is a narcissist who is incapable of changing their views. Are they still totally responsible for how they think?
If so why should the person deserve to be punched when its not their fault they retain their beliefs?
Yes, Neo-Nazis are absolutely responsible for how they think. We know that they can change because some have rid themselves of their insane racist ideas. And to say that Neo-Nazis aren't responsible for how they think is giving them license to commit crimes against minorities.
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
03 Feb 2017, 5:27 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Their is context to each of those things.
The Neo-Nazi was not assaulting anyone. The shooting in Ferguson was terrible but the policeman may have done it out of fear not hate, the victim had after all done a robbery.
if a Neo Nazi is a narcissist who is incapable of changing their views. Are they still totally responsible for how they think?
If so why should the person deserve to be punched when its not their fault they retain their beliefs?
Yes, Neo-Nazis are absolutely responsible for how they think. We know that they can change because some have rid themselves of their insane racist ideas. And to say that Neo-Nazis aren't responsible for how they think is giving them license to commit crimes against minorities.
And no I do not think that Neo-Nazis have a license to commit crimes. I think that if someone is going to commit a crime etc they will have to be arrested and thrown in jail because the action they will do is wrong.
But no I don't believe anyone per-se "deserves" a punishment as often thinking differently is beyond them.
Their is no evil in people just in actions. And if someone is going to do a bad action they will have to be stopped.
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03 Feb 2017, 5:44 pm
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Their is context to each of those things.
The Neo-Nazi was not assaulting anyone. The shooting in Ferguson was terrible but the policeman may have done it out of fear not hate, the victim had after all done a robbery.
if a Neo Nazi is a narcissist who is incapable of changing their views. Are they still totally responsible for how they think?
If so why should the person deserve to be punched when its not their fault they retain their beliefs?
Yes, Neo-Nazis are absolutely responsible for how they think. We know that they can change because some have rid themselves of their insane racist ideas. And to say that Neo-Nazis aren't responsible for how they think is giving them license to commit crimes against minorities.
And no I do not think that Neo-Nazis have a license to commit crimes. I think that if someone is going to commit a crime etc they will have to be arrested and thrown in jail because the action they will do is wrong.
But no I don't believe anyone per-se "deserves" a punishment as often thinking differently is beyond them.
Their is no evil in people just in actions. And if someone is going to do a bad action they will have to be stopped.
Oh, there are plenty people with evil in them around.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
03 Feb 2017, 5:47 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.
Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.
Their is context to each of those things.
The Neo-Nazi was not assaulting anyone. The shooting in Ferguson was terrible but the policeman may have done it out of fear not hate, the victim had after all done a robbery.
if a Neo Nazi is a narcissist who is incapable of changing their views. Are they still totally responsible for how they think?
If so why should the person deserve to be punched when its not their fault they retain their beliefs?
Yes, Neo-Nazis are absolutely responsible for how they think. We know that they can change because some have rid themselves of their insane racist ideas. And to say that Neo-Nazis aren't responsible for how they think is giving them license to commit crimes against minorities.
And no I do not think that Neo-Nazis have a license to commit crimes. I think that if someone is going to commit a crime etc they will have to be arrested and thrown in jail because the action they will do is wrong.
But no I don't believe anyone per-se "deserves" a punishment as often thinking differently is beyond them.
Their is no evil in people just in actions. And if someone is going to do a bad action they will have to be stopped.
If someone's personality is self-serving and they innately lack empathy is it their fault?
If so why?
Many people simply aren't capable of changing its how their brains are wired.
Oh, there are plenty people with evil in them around.
03 Feb 2017, 6:30 pm
Shahunshah wrote:
I think if we want change in the Islamic world we should make our campaign more about individual issues rather than about the changing the Islamic faith. For example I think we should campaign for women's rights in states such as Saudi Arabia and Arabia but shouldn't criticize the Islamic faith when we do that since it just alienates people. Their are examples of this working for instance the Pakistani female Prime Minister was elected on the grounds of getting rid of laws that oppress women however if she had criticized the Islamic faith she wouldn't have been elected.
So you know what I think, I believe we should criticize governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran but we can't criticize Islam that will alienate people when we need their cooperation.
So you know what I think, I believe we should criticize governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran but we can't criticize Islam that will alienate people when we need their cooperation.
This makes no sense how are we to tackle human right issues, if we aren't to criticise the theological root?
You realise the Saudi Royal family are kept in power by appeasing the clergy? This relationship goes way back in their history. Unfortunately Laurence of Arabia backed the wrong tribe. Maybe House of Rashid would have been slightly better.
This "we can't criticize Islam" has no place in the modern world. Nothing is too sacred for criticism. They have no problem we criticising other faiths. They don't get a free pass.
Btw ISISs interpretation of the Quran whist may not what many muslims hold, is a perfectly credible interpretation based on the words and teachings. It is not tenuous or far fetched. Much of what they practice can come from this interpretation and therefore doesn't need much in the way of Hadiths.
So you are saying don't critisise becuase they risk changing their interpretation to a more radical one? Well this has to be in the bounds of credibility for that happen, which is why critisim is so important.
03 Feb 2017, 6:34 pm
0_equals_true wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Barchan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Zimmerman isn't white.
oh my gods, can you not
He's part Afro-Peruvian and Hispanic. Wasn't it the same media who labelled him 'white' the same one who separated whites and Hispanics into separate categories during the recent election?
As someone with Peruvian Heritage I can also add that Afro-Peruvian are very small minority group 2% some estimates of Chinese Peruvians make them almost double that. Chinese have been migrating to Peru since the 19th century.
Cheers, interesting facts.
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