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pluto
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05 Mar 2009, 5:10 pm

IdahoAspie wrote:
Dussel wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
History disagrees. While there was no "German Nation" as a whole before the 1870s, there was the Holy Roman Empire, which where mostly Germanic, and very controlling and dominating.


What? The central power of the Holy Roman Empire was hardly in the position to impose it's own law within the realm. The administration of this Empire was one of the most decentralized possible. Decision making was a formalized process of finding agreement of all involved: No majority votes on issues of the constitution and on religion.

The central administration was split between the Empire and Arch-Chancellery in Mainz. But even here there an extra layer via the Imperial Circles in which the local states (and we talk about 1200 of those) elected a Capitan ("Hauptmann") which was the link between the states and the central authorities. The highest court, the Imperial Chamber Court, was an independent court on which even the Emperor was only a party. You may google a bit for "Statutum in favorem principum" of 1231 or for the description Samuel von Pufendorf made in his book "De Statu Imperii Germanici" of the 1690s.


Germany started two world wars. It started a European war to get itself started. I would call that a war prone nation. You can argue the organized government structure of the HRE all you want, but they were largely Germanic people. And Germanic people, have a history, as well as modern history, of making warfare.


Where nations and wars are concerned,it's never so straightforward.As others have said,
Germany didn't start the 1st world war.In the 2nd,Hitler was financed by American and
British banks (it's only now in the current economic crisis that people are starting to realise
just how much corruption and strife has been encouraged for financial gain with no regard
for what is decent or fair) . The Nazi scientists who developed rocket weapons were helped
to escape and assist in US and then Soviet weapons and space projects,with many people no
doubt benefitting financially in the whole 'Cold War' process. The same thing happened in Iraq
where Saddam Hussain was originally supported by the US and UK,where certain parties
have no doubt benefitted from the 'war' in terms of rebuilding and oil-related contracts.

As far as Germanic people go,this description encompasses British,Dutch,Scandinavian - all involved as early settlers in the USA.In view of this I don't think we can really generalise
about any nations.So,although personally I would never hate the USA I can understand why some others might think it has in the past been somewhat hypocritical in championing itself as a leader of world freedom,while ignoring some of the covert activities that go on behind the scenes. The same goes for my own country the UK,pretending to be a model of democracy,in case anyone thinks I'm being unduly anti-American !


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IdahoAspie
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05 Mar 2009, 6:22 pm

oli234 wrote:
Actually before the assasination of arch ducke ferdinand British and German troops had already been fighting.

Germany had started to build the Berlin to Bagdad rail way to exploit the oil in the region. Britain had just uprgraded it's naval fleet from coal to oil run and Germany wanted to do the same but possesed no oil rich territory in it's empire, hence the railyway. British troops were sent into Iraq to stop this from happening. The first people to die in world war 1 were in Iraq, though this had largly been air brushed out of the history books.


I don't think Iraq existed until after WWI. At least that is what I was taught.



IdahoAspie
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05 Mar 2009, 6:32 pm

pluto wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
Dussel wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
History disagrees. While there was no "German Nation" as a whole before the 1870s, there was the Holy Roman Empire, which where mostly Germanic, and very controlling and dominating.


What? The central power of the Holy Roman Empire was hardly in the position to impose it's own law within the realm. The administration of this Empire was one of the most decentralized possible. Decision making was a formalized process of finding agreement of all involved: No majority votes on issues of the constitution and on religion.

The central administration was split between the Empire and Arch-Chancellery in Mainz. But even here there an extra layer via the Imperial Circles in which the local states (and we talk about 1200 of those) elected a Capitan ("Hauptmann") which was the link between the states and the central authorities. The highest court, the Imperial Chamber Court, was an independent court on which even the Emperor was only a party. You may google a bit for "Statutum in favorem principum" of 1231 or for the description Samuel von Pufendorf made in his book "De Statu Imperii Germanici" of the 1690s.


Germany started two world wars. It started a European war to get itself started. I would call that a war prone nation. You can argue the organized government structure of the HRE all you want, but they were largely Germanic people. And Germanic people, have a history, as well as modern history, of making warfare.


Where nations and wars are concerned,it's never so straightforward.As others have said,
Germany didn't start the 1st world war.In the 2nd,Hitler was financed by American and
British banks (it's only now in the current economic crisis that people are starting to realise
just how much corruption and strife has been encouraged for financial gain with no regard
for what is decent or fair) . The Nazi scientists who developed rocket weapons were helped
to escape and assist in US and then Soviet weapons and space projects,with many people no
doubt benefitting financially in the whole 'Cold War' process. The same thing happened in Iraq
where Saddam Hussain was originally supported by the US and UK,where certain parties
have no doubt benefitted from the 'war' in terms of rebuilding and oil-related contracts.

As far as Germanic people go,this description encompasses British,Dutch,Scandinavian - all involved as early settlers in the USA.In view of this I don't think we can really generalise
about any nations.So,although personally I would never hate the USA I can understand why some others might think it has in the past been somewhat hypocritical in championing itself as a leader of world freedom,while ignoring some of the covert activities that go on behind the scenes. The same goes for my own country the UK,pretending to be a model of democracy,in case anyone thinks I'm being unduly anti-American !


I am pretty sure the Germans started the first world war. Not only is that what I have read in history books and heard from college professors, but I have talked to people that lived at that time. They told me it was the Kaiser of Germany that wanted more territory then he was allotted. He was related to the Nobility of England. He build up his army looking for excuses to attack.

Mistreatment of Germans after WWI and Hitler was the cause of WWII.

I don't think you can solely blame greed, as greed is always present. Greed and gross profiteering can occur during time of peace and war. But peace is easier to stabilize and support than war, which someone usually wins or surrenders, or pulls out.



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05 Mar 2009, 9:54 pm

IdahoAspie wrote:
Mistreatment of Germans after WWI and Hitler was the cause of WWII.


Yes that is right. And WWI was going to happen one way or another. It was looming, and if the serbian assassination didnt start it, something else would have shortly.


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IdahoAspie
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05 Mar 2009, 11:15 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
I do not believe I am better than anyone else. But I believe the USA is the best country in the world. I think all people are equal. But not all systems of government. Some systems of government are down right evil, or dysfunctional.

That is my belief, and I will give you reasons. You can disagree, but you failed to convince me otherwise.


So you don't have a big superiority/inferiority complex yet feel the need to post these threads, when you should be living it up considering how great it is.

You think the US has learnt nothing from other countries, and can learn nothing?

What other countries have you lived in?

Look up the word insular in the dictionary.


You like to put words in my mouth I never said.

I never said we didn't learn from other countries.
I never said I was personally rich.
I never said I did/didn't have a inferiority/superiority complex

Do you like to make up arguments and pretend they are that of someone you never met, so you can win a pointless internet argument?

Look up the word Strawman in the dictionary.



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05 Mar 2009, 11:19 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
Mistreatment of Germans after WWI and Hitler was the cause of WWII.


Yes that is right. And WWI was going to happen one way or another. It was looming, and if the serbian assassination didnt start it, something else would have shortly.


Yes, history has shown that when a country builds up its military and wants to go to war, it will go to war.

Germans were mistreated after WWI. But I don't blame Europe for mistreating them considering how much destruction and lives they cost them. I would have wanted to just take everything they had too if they bombed all my cities and had a nice standing one in perfect shape. If someone mangled my car around a tree and killed my children, I would want their car and their paycheck, too.



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06 Mar 2009, 12:20 am

The harsh sanctions applied against Germany after WWI were revenge on the part of the French. The Germans had applied strong sanctions in a previous war, but the french took it too far.

It was instrumental in the decency that Germany was treated with after WWII. The escalation of war reparations was a germinal factor in both world wars.


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06 Mar 2009, 1:13 am

Fuzzy wrote:
The harsh sanctions applied against Germany after WWI were revenge on the part of the French. The Germans had applied strong sanctions in a previous war, but the french took it too far.

It was instrumental in the decency that Germany was treated with after WWII. The escalation of war reparations was a germinal factor in both world wars.


I agree for the most part. But Germany didn't stop at attacking the French :P.



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06 Mar 2009, 7:15 am

It's the US who stopped the Germans to attack further, man.



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06 Mar 2009, 8:08 am

ruennsheng wrote:
It's the US who stopped the Germans to attack further, man.


You are right, the US reversed the fortunes of the Allied forces against the Axis powers.



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06 Mar 2009, 1:42 pm

ruennsheng wrote:
It's the US who stopped the Germans to attack further, man.


This is much more the result of the Elysee-Treaty of 1963; a treaty which in respect of the US War with Iraq II did not work in favour of G. W. Bush:

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06 Mar 2009, 10:24 pm

Any imperialist country would have done this though...



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06 Mar 2009, 10:37 pm

IdahoAspie wrote:
ruennsheng wrote:
It's the US who stopped the Germans to attack further, man.


You are right, the US reversed the fortunes of the Allied forces against the Axis powers.


For the war it is true, but I am more than certain that a Nazi-dominated Europe would be not stable on a longer term. Empires need to provide their subjects a real benefit, otherwise they collapse, because the costs of suppressing the people are too high and drains the substance. Suppressed people do not work very well and need constant military and other presents to keep those under control.

Germany on itself was not that stable this time as the Nazi propaganda suggested - there were 100'000 of political prisoners, millions would be follow in whole of Europe. A constant thread of rebellions would need a constant strong and expensive apparatus for the suppression.



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07 Mar 2009, 7:39 am

ruennsheng wrote:
It's the US who stopped the Germans to attack further, man.


The Soviets did their share. Consider the Battle of Kursk. The T-34 tank produced by the Soviet "subhumans" wrecked the much vaunted panzers. After Kirsk the Germans were in full retreat in the East.

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08 Mar 2009, 1:07 am

However the Soviets are pushed into the outskirts of Moscow... Without USA, even USSR would be defeated.



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08 Mar 2009, 1:09 am

ruennsheng wrote:
However the Soviets are pushed into the outskirts of Moscow... Without USA, even USSR would be defeated.


Very likely. But without the Soviet Union bleeding profusely the Americans and the Brits might not have taken Germany down in time before the Germans got lots of jet planes in the air (they did beat both the Americans and the Brits to an operational jet fighter). So the Russkies did their share. Besides, better the Commies should bleed, yes?

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