Do you believe in God?
And you are not an atheist, but in actuality an "anti-theist". You can not tolerate other people having a God centric worldview so you find justifications to try to eradicate their belief systems as well.
Atheists can generally live at peace with people who are religious.
1. Belief is never a choice.
2. My atheism is based on perception only in the sense that everything I know is based on things I perceived. But I perceive that theist arguments fall flat.
3. Yes, I'm an anti-theist but,
4. No, I don't have a problem living at peace with theists. All my friends are theists.
5. I don't believe in tolerance if it means ignoring another's point of view. I think constructive engagement is better.
6. I'm quite happy that there is no evidence for a God. Even if God's existence could be shown, I would not worship Him.
I cannot say I agree with that notion. If anything the preponderance of evidence favors God, unless you wish to invoke the multiverse theory. If you were to base the constants of the universe and balance them in probability,
the chances of the universe appearing on its own is essentially 1/10^528 (the answer is obv. incorrect did it quickly on my pocket calculator.) At this point, since the multiverse cannot be proved or observed in a manner that can be falsified, Occam's Razor favors the idea of God.
The physical constants aren't properties of the universe, they are properties of the calculations of physicists. Not quite the same thing. Theists often use nonsense probabilities to lend pseudoscientific support their claims. Even if you were able to show that the universe appeared "on it's own" (whatever that means), you are still far from showing that God was the cause. And far from explaining why God can be self caused but the universe can't be (special pleading fallacy).
I find it quite the opposite. In my experience it is the atheist who actually attempts to use as a "positive argument that god does not exist" a sort of "informal sketch" of probability theory applied to "infinite time" (the monkeys "randomly" smashing on the type-writers given infinite time producing the complete, flawless works of William Shakespeare.) to explain the vast complexity of our world... not to mention the concept of natural selection working on time+chance/mutation being sufficient to engender the proliferation of diverse life in the delicate symphony it constitutes in the biosphere Also... this plays into many of their ill-informed and flakey notions of "randomness" and "chaos." For me this is their own "God of the gaps" fallacy in action. Now, having said that, I appreciate informal discussions on theoretical ideas on the nature of reality. But when I see an atheist who thinks he is superior to a christian (be the theist knowledgeable or someone who has not thought critically), because he claims to know God does not exist based on pseudo-logic from the previous mentioned "echo chamber of misinformation and ignorance," it makes me angry. What i see from far too many atheist and secular humanists is a sort of smugness and patting each other on the back for being "the brights." Its like they are completely oblivious to the whole point.
To see what I mean by this "missing of the point..." I often like to ask an atheist whether they know what Gospel means... in almost every case they do not know that it simply means "the good news"... The news that God exists is the single greatest epiphany one can contemplate for me... again Pascal's wager perfectly illustrates why it is not only reasonable and pragmatic, but imperative to adopt the position that God does exist.
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
Last edited by NoahYates on 08 Mar 2016, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
When people claim that their atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, I remind them that agnosticism is actually what they mean, because if they are actually atheist they are positing the claim that there is no God, which is a claim to not only know some internal implicit inconsistencies/contradictions within the concept of God, which they need to make explicit.... but also a claim to know that it is not even possible that God could exist..... but we know from Kant as well as Godel that this sort of knowledge is impossible. So the atheist, if he is to give himself that identity, shoulders a very heavy claim with an enormous burden of proof. However, many people do adopt that position and can still get along with the theist.
I feel like people who say we cannot know anything about God are simply ignoring the actual content all of the worlds religions and the entire enterprise of metaphysics and epistemology and science... they do not engage with the source material, because they believe it all to be silly and so their own understanding of theology and philosophy is superficial. This is also why they have a hard time giving positive arguments against the existence of God... they cant refer to the esoteric concepts within each system of belief. I am not saying every atheist is as shallow as this... it is simply a fact that there are plenty of shallow theists and atheists alike... who have not examined their beliefs or thought critically about these issues.... all too often people just "echo chamber" what others say, and therefore influence each other in feed-back loop of misinformation and ignorance.... from both sides...
There is a new movement called "new atheism," which is stronger than the traditional atheism. This new atheism is the "anti-theism movement." These people would contend that not only is God not real, it is an irrational concept that is poisonous to humanism, and therefore should be eliminated from the earth. In other words, not only is there not God, but there should not be even the idea of God... This is one of the only major religion that I am personally intolerant of-- New Atheism/Anti-theism.... its such a bitter, sad, spiteful, toxic, shallow... and (if you actually think it through) unlivable ideology.... I think they need a good dose of existentialism conjoined with a thorough reading of Nietzsche, followed by the simple offer of Pascal's Wager. The Ravi Zacharias video, "Why I am not an Atheist" that I posted earlier in this thread goes into this very well.
God is not a theory in a scientific sense. It lacks falsifiability. And it lacks a clear definition of God.
I believe there is no God, but not in an absolute sense. Thus I sidestep the requirement of absolute knowledge. I'm saying that if there is no evidence of God, where evidence should exist, then it's reasonable to reject the idea (not that the idea shouldn't exist, that's silly). In the same way I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Not that I know it will rise with absolute certainty (I don't). But based on previous behavior, we can assume it will. Show me new evidence, and I will reconsider my opinion. Most knowledge in science is not based on absolute certainty, but on the preponderance of the evidence, ignoring statistical anomalies.
I do identify with New Atheism, which is simply atheism that is unafraid to confront theism and it's influence in society. I don't believe for one second that theism can be removed from the Earth, only that the minds of reasonable people can be changed. It's certainly not a religion, although it is an ideology. Contrary to theist claims, it is full of positive sentiment; it's feminist, sex positive, racially inclusive, humanistic, and science compatible.
Also Pascal's wager is nonsense. It assumes there are only two choices, atheism or Christianity. What about all the other religions that you can't believe at the same time? Maybe they postulate negative consequences for disbelief too.
I find it quite the opposite. In my experience it is the atheist who actually attempts to use as a "positive argument that god does not exist" a sort of "informal sketch" of probability theory applied to "infinite time" (the monkeys "randomly" smashing on the type-writers given infinite time producing the complete, flawless works of William Shakespeare.) to explain the vast complexity of our world... not to mention the concept of natural selection working on time+chance/mutation being sufficient to engender the proliferation of diverse life in the delicate symphony it constitutes in the biosphere Also... this plays into many of their ill-informed and flakey notions of "randomness" and "chaos." For me this is their own "God of the gaps" fallacy in action. Now, having said that, I appreciate informal discussions on theoretical ideas on the nature of reality. But when I see an atheist who thinks he is superior to a christian (be the theist knowledgeable or someone who has not thought critically), because he claims to know God does not exist based on pseudo-logic from the previous mentioned "echo chamber of misinformation and ignorance," it makes me angry. What i see from far too many atheist and secular humanists is a sort of smugness and patting each other on the back for being "the brights." Its like they are completely oblivious to the whole point.
To see what I mean by this "missing of the point..." I often like to ask an atheist whether they know what Gospel means... in almost every case they do not know that it simply means "the good news"... The news that God exists is the single greatest epiphany one can contemplate for me... again Pascal's wager perfectly illustrates why it is not only reasonable, but pragmatic to adopt the position that God does exist.
I believe that evolution explains in a rather dramatically elegant way, the existence of complexity (life) on Earth. All of biology is based on this, you don't even need to include a wizard.
Personally, I am not so exclusive in my thinking about other religions. In fact, again, it is the opposite case for me. My whole project in my intellectual pursuit of science, theology, and philosophy is to connect the dots.. and that means bringing all viewpoints from all sources of knowledge and disciplines together... analyzing our experience systematically and comprehensively... and thinking outside the box. Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and a whole slew of "systems of philosophy" my favorites being Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza, Berkeley, Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Whitehead, and Alan Watts all merge together in my mind to build an extremely complex system of ideas that influence the balance of my scale that measure the weight of my assessment of the truth about the question of the existence of something like what we all know we are talking about and referring to when we use the word God in the affirmative.
Also, when this subject is raised, I feel compelled to point out that as Christians and theists, we believe that all men are created in the image of God. What does this mean? We are created in the vision of God... what he had in Mind. And we are also endowed with our own minds and free will. But we are of the essence of God. We have inscribed in our heart a moral sense and a self-awareness. The Abrahamic tradition tells the story of a broken world. Something went wrong that God did not foresee. I speculate that the metaphor of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is precisely communicating this break in what was supposed to happen from what actually had happened. This is the story of the Fall. And incidentally, I believe, God recognized this brokenness... and how our degree of self-awareness and understanding/rationalizing corrupted the "play." So he has entered the minds eye of the various mystics throughout history through the holy spirit which is endowed in all of us as beings made in "the Image (Mind) of God" in order to inspire influence in "sufficient ways." for me, all of the worlds religions say the same thing, but in a different way. This is what frustrates me in a way, is that even the modern christian apologist, who is at the top of the intellectual game at this point in time, does not recognize the supplementary nature of the ideas contained in eastern religion/philosophy. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Christianity go hand in hand for me as purely intellectual complementary systems. keep an eye out for a book by Noah Yates in the future on this connecting of the dots between all ideologies and disciplines. ![]()
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
I find it quite the opposite. In my experience it is the atheist who actually attempts to use as a "positive argument that god does not exist" a sort of "informal sketch" of probability theory applied to "infinite time" (the monkeys "randomly" smashing on the type-writers given infinite time producing the complete, flawless works of William Shakespeare.) to explain the vast complexity of our world... not to mention the concept of natural selection working on time+chance/mutation being sufficient to engender the proliferation of diverse life in the delicate symphony it constitutes in the biosphere Also... this plays into many of their ill-informed and flakey notions of "randomness" and "chaos." For me this is their own "God of the gaps" fallacy in action. Now, having said that, I appreciate informal discussions on theoretical ideas on the nature of reality. But when I see an atheist who thinks he is superior to a christian (be the theist knowledgeable or someone who has not thought critically), because he claims to know God does not exist based on pseudo-logic from the previous mentioned "echo chamber of misinformation and ignorance," it makes me angry. What i see from far too many atheist and secular humanists is a sort of smugness and patting each other on the back for being "the brights." Its like they are completely oblivious to the whole point.
To see what I mean by this "missing of the point..." I often like to ask an atheist whether they know what Gospel means... in almost every case they do not know that it simply means "the good news"... The news that God exists is the single greatest epiphany one can contemplate for me... again Pascal's wager perfectly illustrates why it is not only reasonable, but pragmatic to adopt the position that God does exist.
I believe that evolution explains in a rather dramatically elegant way, the existence of complexity (life) on Earth. All of biology is based on this, you don't even need to include a wizard.
Just out of curiosity are you familiar with Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism?
Also, if you want to contend that evolution accounts for all life, I think you might be intersted to take a look at the series I linked the first video of earlier in this thread on DNA as communications system.
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
Last edited by NoahYates on 08 Mar 2016, 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Exactly!
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"Not only is your atheism based on YOUR perception, but it is also YOUR choice to believe it."
No, it's based on acceptance of a chain of rational arguments. There is a vast difference between accepting an argument as both valid and true, and believing in a conclusion without having done so.
"When people claim that their atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, I remind them that agnosticism is actually what they mean, because if they are actually atheist they are positing the claim that there is no God"
Russell's Teapot applies here quite nicely. Atheists accept that not only has it been shown that a god or gods don't exist, they also are not needed, nor do they best explain any observable phenomenon other than those that originate within the minds of Men.
"I feel like people who say we cannot know anything about God are simply ignoring the actual content all of the worlds religions and the entire enterprise of metaphysics and epistemology and science"
Those examples explain much about Man and nothing about god or gods unless one presupposes its/their existence without needing proof. And that fits nicely with the worlds religions, metaphysics, etc. in that they exist not because of reason, but rather tradition (or Tradition, if you prefer).
Also, Pascal's wager only works in a purely heterogeneous (ie one religion) environment. In reality, based on the number of different gods across time and cultures, it is highly probable he would've chosen the wrong one.
My question is,
"Why do theists insist on trying to use reason & science to prove the existence of their god or gods when their realm has been relegated to the gaps?"
In other words, in the face of proof that the sun is the center of our solar system & we are on an arm of a galaxy, in the face of proof that germs exist and cause disease not immoral behavior, in the face of knowledge of what actually causes lightning and thunder...why keep trying to hold that argument together?
It's a losing battle as the gaps get smaller.
Why not regroup and simply let one's god or gods be responsible for the only thing it or they have ever expressed an interest in, the ethical behavior of people toward each other? Why is it so important to try to control the beliefs and lives of others?
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“For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.”
―Carl Sagan
You have demonstrated how superficial your understanding of theology is.
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
But you said atheists were wrong to point to...
So which is it?
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
But you said atheists were wrong to point to...
So which is it?
Have you heard of theistic evolution or intelligent design? The anthropic principle may have something to it as well. Also... did you watch the series on DNA I recommended. I have shown it to theist and atheist alike and they thoroughly enjoyed it... and it inspired interesting conversation
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
Have you heard of theistic evolution or intelligent design? The anthropic principle may have something to it as well. Also... did you watch the series on DNA I recommended. I have shown it to theist and atheist alike and they thoroughly enjoyed it... and it inspired interesting conversation
Intelligent Design is a political ploy to introduce creationism is school classrooms. In spite of 25 years of this effort, they have failed to produce one peer reviewed scientific paper in support of their thesis.
That is because the sentence was in reply to Edenthiel. My post and your post occurred simultaneously. ![]()
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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts

