TERF's - Feminists that don't think trans women are women

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Bradleigh
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01 Jan 2020, 9:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

I don't have an opinion about it. And...I don't wanna even think about it. :lol:

I work with a transgender guy. A nice person. you're supposed call this person "she". So I go along with it. But...I am not gonna beat up someone who calls him "him".

Yeah, I am pretty sure you do have an opinion on it. Since I am assuming that you are referring to a transgender woman as a "transgender guy".
Even if you might have been more comfortable in the 20th century, people like your colleague would have been far more uncomfortable, or in greater physical danger.

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kraftiekortie
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01 Jan 2020, 9:42 pm

As long as he, she, they, or whatever, is a nice person and not mean to me, their transgender status really doesn’t bother me.

TheRobotLives
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01 Jan 2020, 11:40 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

This is the kinda thing that makes me wish I could go back to the 20th century.

Back then you didn't hafta think about things like "what your opinion is about women who don't accept transgender individuals who born male as fellow women".

I don't have an opinion about it. And...I don't wanna even think about it. :lol:

I work with a transgender guy. A nice person. you're supposed call this person "she". So I go along with it. But...I am not gonna beat up someone who calls him "him".

Where I work, you can be fired for SEXIST or ANTI-GAY statements.

Wrong pronouns may not get you fired, however, it could put in front of a higher up boss and an EEOC (office of equal opportunity) representative.

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The_Walrus
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02 Jan 2020, 4:15 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

As long as he, she, they, or whatever, is a nice person and not mean to me, their transgender status really doesn’t bother me.

I hear this sort of thing quite a lot. I accept that it is well-intentioned, but I think it is wrong. Morally, at the very least.

If someone is mean to you, are you suddenly bothered by their race, gender, or sexuality?

The_Walrus
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02 Jan 2020, 4:17 am

Mikah wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

Mikah wrote:

If gender dysphoria is a real condition that pretty much undermines the foundations of feminism and makes a mockery of everything they have achieved so far or hope to achieve in the future. Gender dysphoria should not exist if feminists are right about men and women. Those poor souls should have been socialised into the "correct" gender by virtue of their birth sex. It should not be underestimated how much of a threat trans is to feminist ideology.

I don't like this generalization of feminism, I don't think most modern feminism groups see gender dysphoria as a threat. Some maybe do, but I think those are the ones being considered radical in that regard.

Yeah, I’d have to agree. None of the feminists I’ve known in person were against the T in LGBT. If anything, they were more open about it than most people in the area. Of course, there are certainly plenty of exceptions, but I’d suspect that they would be exceptions rather than the rule.

Many aren't particularly bright these days, particularly the modern university educated progressive. Most just take the label without really understanding it or how the T in LGBT totally undermines it. The smart ones either give up feminism or, more often, become TERFs (and move to British twitter for some reason).

Accepting that gender identity is different from gender roles doesn’t undermine feminism, only radical feminism. Rejection of nuance is not a sign of intelligence, quite the opposite.

kraftiekortie
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02 Jan 2020, 4:27 am

No. If someone is mean to me, they are mean to me, regardless of “status.”

I’d react identically whether a person is trans or cis.

I still wouldn’t use their “status” against that someone.

The_Walrus
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02 Jan 2020, 4:38 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

That’s what I thought you meant

People often say “I don’t care if you’re X as long as you are nice to me” but I think that’s a corruption of “I don’t care about X, I just care if you’re nice to me” - slightly different words but very different meaning.

Mikah
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02 Jan 2020, 6:54 am

Bradleigh wrote:

Pretty sure most current progressive belief is that there are indeed differences in the brains between genders, and that these do not always match the gender usually associated with that sex.

This is a very reasonable view - but it does undermine feminism. If there truly are differences in the male and female brain, you automatically lose most arguments that say men and women should be equally represented in any given area of life. Accepting the idea of different brains opens the door to different strengths, different kinds of intelligence, different predispositions. Things that would show up as statistical imbalances when looking at the big picture. Imbalances that, even alone, have been used as proof of discrimination and institutional sexism. Things that can now be explained away by biology and developmental psychology... oops.

The_Walrus wrote:

Rejection of nuance is not a sign of intelligence, quite the opposite.

You'd usually be right, but this is a war between ideas that cannot be reconciled, not a matter of nuance. It's not a new conflict either. Think back only 10-15 years ago, before trans became the hot topic, at the way feminists railed against scientific studies that purported to show measurable, sometimes literally visible differences between the brains of men and women.

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magz
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02 Jan 2020, 7:36 am

Mikah wrote:

scientific studies that purported to show measurable, sometimes literally visible differences between the brains of men and women.

citation needed

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Bradleigh
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02 Jan 2020, 8:02 am

Mikah wrote:

That is BS. A difference does not mean that people of different genders are ill suited and not discriminated against. I think that you have either a twisted or outdated idea of feminism. And it does lose some nuance on ideas of gender being a sliding scale, which many feminists believe.

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Mikah
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02 Jan 2020, 8:05 am

magz wrote:

citation needed

I post this hoping there won't be an argument about which side is right, only in the hopes of acknowledging the existence of a battle between worldviews, science and now transgender ideology.

From the first page of google:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04 ... -and-women

Adjusting for age, on average, they found that women tended to have significantly thicker cortices than men. Thicker cortices have been associated with higher scores on a variety of cognitive and general intelligence tests. Meanwhile, men had higher brain volumes than women in every subcortical region they looked at, including the hippocampus (which plays broad roles in memory and spatial awareness), the amygdala (emotions, memory, and decision-making), striatum (learning, inhibition, and reward-processing), and thalamus (processing and relaying sensory information to other parts of the brain).

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring ... erent.html

His plan was to learn what he could about the activity of genes tied to behaviors that differ between the sexes, then use that knowledge to help identify the neuronal circuits — clusters of nerve cells in close communication with one another — underlying those behaviors.

At the time, this was not a universally popular idea. The neuroscience community had largely considered any observed sex-associated differences in cognition and behavior in humans to be due to the effects of cultural influences. Animal researchers, for their part, seldom even bothered to use female rodents in their experiments, figuring that the cyclical variations in their reproductive hormones would introduce confounding variability into the search for fundamental neurological insights.

But over the past 15 years or so, there’s been a sea change as new technologies have generated a growing pile of evidence that there are inherent differences in how men’s and women’s brains are wired and how they work.

Not how well they work, mind you. Our differences don’t mean one sex or the other is better or smarter or more deserving. Some researchers have grappled with charges of “neurosexism”: falling prey to stereotypes or being too quick to interpret human sex differences as biological rather than cultural. They counter, however, that data from animal research, cross-cultural surveys, natural experiments and brain-imaging studies demonstrate real, if not always earthshaking, brain differences, and that these differences may contribute to differences in behavior and cognition.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 160901.htm

Researchers at the University of Maryland School of Medicine have discovered a mechanism for how androgens -- male sex steroids -- sculpt brain development. The research, conducted by Margaret M. McCarthy, Ph.D., who Chairs the Department of Pharmacology, could ultimately help researchers understand behavioral development differences between males and females.

The research, published in Neuron, discovered a mechanism for how androgens, male sex steroids, sculpt the brains of male rats to produce behavioral differences, such as more aggression and rougher play behavior. "We already knew that the brains of males and females are different and that testosterone produced during the second trimester in humans and late gestation in rodents contributes to the differences but we did not know how testosterone has these effects" said Dr. McCarthy.

https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article ... 59/4996558

Sex differences in the human brain are of interest for many reasons: for example, there are sex differences in the observed prevalence of psychiatric disorders and in some psychological traits that brain differences might help to explain. We report the largest single-sample study of structural and functional sex differences in the human brain (2750 female, 2466 male participants; mean age 61.7 years, range 44–77 years). Males had higher raw volumes, raw surface areas, and white matter fractional anisotropy; females had higher raw cortical thickness and higher white matter tract complexity. There was considerable distributional overlap between the sexes. Subregional differences were not fully attributable to differences in total volume, total surface area, mean cortical thickness, or height. There was generally greater male variance across the raw structural measures. Functional connectome organization showed stronger connectivity for males in unimodal sensorimotor cortices, and stronger connectivity for females in the default mode network. This large-scale study provides a foundation for attempts to understand the causes and consequences of sex differences in adult brain structure and function.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/ ... rains1.htm

Scientists have known for a while now that men and women have slightly different brains, but they thought the changes were limited to the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that controls sex drive and food intake. A few scientists may have admitted that men's brains were indeed bigger, but they would have tried to qualify this finding by telling you that it was because men were bigger. Because brain size has been linked with intelligence, it's very tricky to go around saying that men have bigger brains. Yet men do seem to have women beat here; even when accounting for height and weight differences, men have slightly bigger brains. Does this mean they're smarter? Let's keep going.

In 2001, researchers from Harvard found that certain parts of the brain were differently sized in males and females, which may help balance out the overall size difference. The study found that parts of the frontal lobe, responsible for problem-solving and decision-making, and the limbic cortex, responsible for regulating emotions, were larger in women [source: Hoag]. In men, the parietal cortex, which is involved in space perception, and the amygdala, which regulates sexual and social behavior, were larger [source: Hoag].

---

Also from the same page, some of the pushback that continues to this day:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

Rippon’s central message is that “a gendered world will produce a gendered brain”. Her book stands with Angela Saini’s 2017 Inferior and Cordelia Fine’s 2010 Delusions of Gender in rooting out the “neurosexism” that has pervaded attempts to understand difference at the brain level. It’s a juicy history that would make for super-fun reading, if it were all truly in the past. Sadly, the moles keep surfacing. Rippon begins with an 1895 quote from social psychologist Gustave Le Bon, who used his portable cephalometer to declare that women “represent the most inferior forms of human evolution”. She ends in 2017, with Google engineer James Damore blogging to co-workers about “biological causes” for the dearth of women in tech and leadership roles.

https://cosmicshambles.com/words/blogs/ ... ale-brains

A recent large population study claims to conclusively prove that male and female brains are different. Of course, it does no such thing.

A recently released study from the university of Cambridge claims to show that male and female brains are clearly very different. In a huge study of over 600,000 people, the data obtained showed that men tend to be more analytical and ‘systemic’ while women tend to be more emotional and empathetic, thus providing clear evidence for controversial theories about the differences between male and female brains.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... ina-rippon

“Hang on a minute!” chuckles Rippon, who has been interested in the human brain since childhood, “the science has moved on. We’re in the 21st century now!” Her measured delivery is at odds with the image created by her detractors, who decry her as a “neuronazi” and a “grumpy old harridan” with an “equality fetish”. For my part, I was braced for an encounter with an egghead, who would talk at me and over me. Rippon is patient, though there is an urgency in her voice as she explains how vital it is, how life-changing, that we finally unpack – and discard – the sexist stereotypes and binary coding that limit and harm us.

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magz
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02 Jan 2020, 8:25 am

Thanks.

They claim there are differences on average, with significant overlap. It's like, women are typically shorter than men - but you can't tell one's sex from their height alone.

My question:
On average, females are less interested in engineering. Does it make the girls interested in engineering less female?

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RetroGamer87
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02 Jan 2020, 8:51 am

Hello. Are we having an argument?

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magz
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02 Jan 2020, 8:52 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Hello. Are we having an argument?

TERFs and trans activists have a bigger one if you're looking for it.

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TwilightPrincess
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02 Jan 2020, 9:04 am

Mikah wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

Pretty sure most current progressive belief is that there are indeed differences in the brains between genders, and that these do not always match the gender usually associated with that sex.

The_Walrus wrote:

Rejection of nuance is not a sign of intelligence, quite the opposite.

You are under the misconception that all feminists think the same. They don’t. You need to re-evaluate what the term actually means by looking at the definition I previously provided.

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02 Jan 2020, 9:06 am

magz wrote:

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Hello. Are we having an argument?

TERFs and trans activists have a bigger one if you're looking for it.

To a Trans Activist, if you're not a Trans Activist, you're a TERF.

To a TERF, if you're not a TERF, you're a Trans Activist.

Same old black-and-white nonsense from both extremes.

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