Does anyone else agree with feminism?

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What feminism has done for men:

1)Womens sexual liberation has, to a large degree, been sexually liberating for men* as well, allowing both sexes to experiment with and enjoy sex without being permanently tied to a partner chosen when they were too young to choose partners well and were largely driven entirely by hormones. Thanks to sexual liberation, both women and men can truly choose their life partners based on love, rather than on desperation for sex or on assuming the yoke of an unwanted burden.

2)Greater participation in family life: a large part of feminism has been the advocacy for greater help from men in the home, along with more female participation in the workforce. This has meant that men, in general, have become more comfortable caring for children and more involved in their children's lives, and that men who choose to participate deeply in the raising of their children are less looked down-upon than they were before the women's movement began. Many men find this as deeply satisfying as women do. Work still needs to be done in this area, but great progress has been made.

3)Sharing of the burden. Women's greater participation in the workforce means that the entire financial burden of supporting the family no longer rests on the man's shoulders, allowing him both greater freedom in terms of job searching, and greater peace of mind.

4)The feminist movement has allowed both men and women to more easily break out of stereotyped gender roles if such roles do not fit them: for instance, women are less likely to be looked down upon for being intelligent and logical than they once were, and men are less likely to be looked down upon for being gentle and compassionate than they once were. Again, there is more work to be done here but great progress has been made.
*by "men," I mean males who would have stepped up and taken responsibility if they participated in making a pregnancy, even back when they could just say, 'She's a slut, the baby's not mine!' and walk away without consequence.

That is true for me LKL but.....AspieRouge will disagree but that shouldn't shock you at all

I read through the last pages of posts and all I can think is, “do some of these posters actually KNOW any feminists?” “Have they ever listened to what someone has told them their positions are?” It’s the same feeling I get when certain Christian fundamentalists or atheists’ try to tell me what Catholics believe … when I’ve spent my whole life as a Catholic and don’t recognize a single concept they are selling.

Basically, I would suggest you are complaining about feminism because you don’t know much about it beyond the sound bites used in conservative political entertainment, and because you are overly focused on one or two controversial positions espoused by organizations like NOW.

I don’t think of myself as feminist, I don't agree with every position considered feminist, but I very much respect the movement and know how much I owe them.

But I DO live surrounded by women who DO consider themselves feminists and activists, and I share many of their thoughts and goals.

I’ve just come off a 12 hour work day and am headed towards another tomorrow (I’m a CPA) so I really really hope that those of you saying you can’t abide by feminism will actually read, understand, and think about this post. I am investing this time that I don’t really have because I think it is that important to remove misconceptions. If any of it is old ground, sorry, but I haven’t read all 98 pages. I’m just coming in at the end. But I have to believe that if you had actually READ any of what people like me have to say, you wouldn’t keep espousing the sound bites that you do. Why do I say that? Because you aren’t actually advocating that all women stay barefoot in the kitchen, covered from head to toe, giving birth to one child after the other. And if you aren’t advocating that, then you share quite a few goals with feminists as I know them.

But, then again, maybe you just like being contrary and riling up women like me. I am going to trust that isn’t the case because I’d like to think better of you than that.

Mirror, I won’t contest your remembering a study about how male and female babies are different. I never said they weren’t. I have both a son and a daughter and pretty much all moms know that the two are born different. What I said was that you can’t expand those differences to reach conclusions about all boys and all girls. Because you can’t. Each child is, first and foremost, unique, and by being so it becomes quite possible for some girls to be physically stronger than some boys, for some boys to be more emotional and nurturing than some girls, and so on. Are little boys, on the average, more physically active, rough, drawn to guns, etc more than little girls are? Yes, they are. But to use that observation to say, for example, that only boys would make good athletes is inappropriate. To use that observation to say that a women making delivers will do a weaker job than a man, and so should be paid less, would also be inappropriate. To use that observation to legislate against women taking certain positions in a company would be inappropriate. It can only be expanded to say that boys are more likely to need to be physically engaged than girls. And they are; that is something schools and moms know.

This paragraph of yours is interesting, because has it ever occurred to you that these are exactly the types of issues feminists have been trying to shed light on and change for decades?

They are. You simply didn’t pick up on it when they tried to get international reaction either because it wasn’t connected to a suitable conservative political agenda at the time (ie demonizing Islam) or because it was from “those selfish feminists.” I have been exposed to these issues by feminist friends through my “liberal media” sources for DECADES.

What exactly do you think the feminist attitude is????

Getting health insurance coverage for birth control? Protecting abortion rights? Yes, they are on the list, and I’ll accept that you disagree with those particular parts of the political platform put forward by certain feminist organizations. But take a look at the NOW website, and this is the list of the top six issues you see:

- Abortion rights, reproductive issues
- Violence against women
- Constitutional Equality
- Promoting diversity / ending racism
- Lesbian rights
- Economic justice

In your own posts, you agree with HALF of the top agenda.

Interesting, isn’t it?

Ragtime, feminism is NOT about saying the sexes are equal. Equal pay for equal work does not mean everyone is exactly the same, it just means that if you are doing the same job just as well, then you should be paid the same for it, and as much as we would like to not believe it, studies continue to show that women in the US do not make the same amount of money, on average, for the same job, as men. Constitutional equality is about codifying the existing laws that guarantee women cannot be discriminated against merely as a result of their gender. Do you really have an issue with either of those concepts? Would you want your wife to work for half the pay of the man beside her if something were to happen to you and she was forced to support herself? Of course not.

You repeat that line, about feminists trying to say men and women are the same, as is saying it often enough will make it true, but it isn’t. Perhaps you hope it is, because it makes it easier to dismiss the more serious issues feminism raises, but it still isn’t what any actual feminist says or thinks (to be honest, many of my friends think they are superior to men in pretty much all ways that actually matter, but they love men anyway; how do you like that role reversal?).

Mirror, this posting of yours bothers me:



Apparently, you haven’t worked for some of my male bosses.

But what really bothers me is that you are extending from 3 unique women to all women, and one man to all men. Really? You don’t know that individuals are, well, individuals? When I was working full time,* it was always me, a woman, that everyone wanted to work under, and came to for mentoring, men included. I’m really proud of the times former co-workers have made a point of telling me how grateful they remain for the career help I gave them. Of my female bosses, I’d say it runs half and half between those I admire and respect and those I found hard to work for. Pretty much the same ratio I have for my former male bosses. Basically, nothing about gender makes or breaks how well a person manages, in my experience, and I’ve got 30 years of it.

(*believe it or not, even though I am working 12 hour days through April 17th, I am officially half time … just, it’s tax season, so all bets are off; but before anyone freaks out that I’m working more than I’m getting paid for, I’ll get to comp time it off later, in the summer, when the kids are out of school – I chose this contract)

Real feminism is simply about not having to be defined, or have your choices limited, because of your gender. That is the core of the agenda in the US and internationally. Feminists were trying to get someone to take action in Afghanistan against the Taliban rule long, long before former President Bush decided to go after the Taliban for harboring Al Queda, and they work for women’s rights wherever they see the need. It isn’t selfish, because society benefits when ALL its citizens are given the opportunity to realize their unique potential, whatever that unique potential is.

PLEASE stop demonizing people without accurately understanding who they are or what they stand for, just because they hold a political position or two you find hard to swallow. It devalues all our voices – male and female - when we are reduced to stereotypes and sound bites.

If you want a REAL issue to take up against current changes in our society that result from efforts to help girls, we can have a discussion about current educational philosophies, which are adding magnitude to a growing gap in academic achievement between boys and girls. Who better to address that without bias than a mom with BOTH a son and daughter, that I want to see succeed? But that would take a few more pages to explain, so I'd best leave it for the next week or so. I've ranted on it on the parenting forum often enough. Good intentions do not, unfortunately, always lead to good results. And that last sentence is something to think about no matter what political leanings you have.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Apr 2012, 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wow that was a long post of yours but worth the read.

I believe Chris Rock put it as "10% of men do 90% of the f*****g" the statistic posted by the Dutch guy whose name I can't remember offhand did show that most women found men in relationships more attractive.

I would say Women do just as much of the f*****g as men but it all depends on the sexual postion your in.

The point of the quote is to say that out of 100% of men, 10% have 90% of the sex. In order for a man to be a "player" he needs charm, humor, an understanding of himself and of women. Perhaps a bit of money, a job, in short status. For a woman to be a player it requires her being present in public where there are men.

Anyone can be a player nancy boy just not some one handsome and btw it takes more for a women to be a player then just to be present in public no no that would never work cause not all men are whores.

I didn't say handsome girlyman, I said "charming", "humorous", "self-aware" and quite a few other things, I didn't mention looks at all so I'd largely prefer if you respond to what I actually write as opposed to what you think I wrote. Furthermore, a large enough subset of men are in fact whores and the subset is large enough that I'd be willing to put $1000 on that a woman of questionable sexual judgment could sleep with 1000 men for free faster than a man could sleep with 1000 different hookers..

You belong to a very small minority of men who put women on pedestals and worship them as opposed to viewing them as flawed human beings just like everyone else. Tell you what, tell me one criticism of your mother, one of your sister and one of your cousin and they have to be real criticisms not "job interview criticisms".

Okay I'll play

My mother is at times to demanding of me even when I do all that I can for her it still isn't enough at times.

My sister well she can be a bit of a pain always stealing my clothes and taking my things with out asking.

My cousin is a bit of a b***h at times when she aruges with me about pointless things.

And no you got it all wrong I identify better with women then I do men because I was born bigender I tend to go back and forth between masculine and feminie gender type behavior and way of thinking.

I just think more like a girl have more friends that are girls and get along better with girls am a feminist as well never stated that I think they are flawed after all were all flawed both men and women are.

I also behave more like a girl then I do as a boy but depending on what mood I am in this changes like I said it goes back and forth from male to female gender type behavior.

Impressive, they aren't major criticisms but a step in the right direction. What appears strange to me is that most bigenders have two distinct persona, whereas judging from your posts you appear to be more along the lines of actual trans-gender, IE you should have been a girl. It could just be a side-effect of your socialization process mainly being influenced by females and as a result the lack of male role models caused you to adopt the behavior and thought processes of your peers which in your case were females. I guess my thoughts come from the point that I haven't seen you approach a topic in a "masculine" way.

My observation time of you is limited though and only through written posts on a forum so a deep analysis is out of the question. It's one of those cases where if you actually switched between the two, you would identify more with males and have more males in your life in your masculine persona and vice versa for your feminine persona whereas you appear to lean towards females the whole time. Of course, it is possible that WP.net is a place your feminine persona likes but your male one doesn't therefore your posts here appear as if they were written by a female most of the time.

I suppose its silly of me to criticize you at this point, due to the fact that I'm capable of adopting a social persona at a seconds notice.

My family is mostly dominated by females the only real male role model I have is my brother. I do show my masculine side in some posts but often not in this one. Though I am not transgender I can understand why some people view me that way.

I suppose I could start showing that persona more often.

Your female persona just appears to be the dominant one speaking as an outside observer with limited opportunity to observe.

...and some men may be more apt to inflate their numbers, in order to appear more macho.

It has also been a boon to our social security system. Upon reaching retirement age, a non-working spouse is entitled to an amount equal to 50% of the working spouse's social security check, and the full amount upon the death of the retired worker. With both spouses working, and paying into the system, the extra social security benefit received (when both spouses qualify based upon their own work records) is not in-addition-to the non-working spouse benefit.

Well, damn, it'll sure be original! The feminist tripe being as overused and ubiquitous as it is.