Ragtime wrote:
amazon_television wrote:
Ragtime I live in the most liberal corner of the country, and my peer group is the most liberal segment of that population, and I have never in my life heard of anyone who takes that position. Where do you get this crap?
Israel can do anything they like, they just should not do things simply because they expect the U.S. to hold their hand when the other countries in the region don't like it.
Unfortunately though, the U.S. will hold their hand, and that will on some level always piss me off. But at the same time, while I am not in the school that thinks that "all war and violence are absolutely wrong at all times and under all circumstances", I don't think that war is awesome. And I understand that American influence, while it enables Israel to do as they please without bearing any responsibility for their actions, also probably serves to prevent a large-scale bloodbath in the region.
At the same time though, I wonder exactly what your position is on all this. Do you believe that Palestine, including the innocent 99% of its population, should be bombed off the face of the earth because they fired some shells into Israel? I doubt that you do, but that is the extreme flip side of what you seem to think the predominant liberal angle is. Palestine, like Israel, is free to do as they please. However, the way the world works is that when you kill innocent people, people get pissed off, and generally you are held accountable for it.
As it stands, Israel has a free pass, and Palestine does not. Unfair as that may be, that is the state of affairs, and both sides can make their decisions accordingly. But being that that is the case, it is ridiculous to me when people b***h about what a raw deal Israel is getting on the whole thing.
So are you for, or not for bombing Israeli citizens?
The vast majority of the "innocent 99% of" Palestinians voted for Hamas, a terrorist organization which has as its declared aim the destruction of Israel. They could have voted for the less-extreme Fatah, but they didn't. So three-quarters of Palestinians are complicit in Hamas' aims. Remember, the Israeli Jews didn't jump up and down and sing in the streets on September 11th, 2001. Many of the "innocent 99% of" Palestinians did. You need to learn who America's friends are in that land, for that is a basic distinction. And your claim that Israel gets a pass from the world is ridiculous, even ludicrous!
My assertion about Israel's "pass" was due to the fact that if any country or group of countries who was capable of inflicting any more than the small-time damage that Palestine causes actually did so, the U.S. would take military action and put the screws to whoever it was until they agreed to keep their hands off Israel. People around the world may not like it, but that essentially amounts to a "pass" in my eyes.
You don't need to agree that that constitutes a pass, but do you not believe that hypothetical sequence of events would be true?
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The vast majority of the "innocent 99% of" Palestinians voted for Hamas
That mentality is not any different than those around the world that believe that all Americans were supportive of Bush's wartime policies. While no doubt yours is a true statement, I don't believe that the way a nation votes inherently makes every individual within it legitimate military targets. You are free to disagree with that; many around the world are with you.
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You need to learn who America's friends are in that land, for that is a basic distinction.
A basic distinction, maybe. Do America's "friends" in the region have any bearing on me personally? Not really. Are our "friends" and "non-friends" in your eyes differentiated by individuals, or nations? My guess is you would say nations; I would say otherwise, and individuals halfway across the world do not affect me one way or another. There's no reason to quibble on this.
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So are you for, or not for bombing Israeli citizens?
I believe that if Palestine bombs Israeli civilians, it should expect retaliation, as that is generally the way the world works. I tried to address this originally, but I got caught up in other things and apparently was unclear; I didn't intend to duck your question.
And again, I'll reiterate my original point, which is that despite the fact that this is "generally" how the world works, Israel knows that IT is not subject to the same rules (due to American interests there), and thus can be excessive and indiscriminate in its retaliation. I think that is bullsh*t, but I'm not in charge of these things (and for good reason), so I accept it.
07 Jun 2009, 10:50 am
