Nationalism and patriotism

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Nationalism and Patriotism

Good things	26%	[ 9 ]
I don't know what to think at this point	3%	[ 1 ]
They don't improve or worsen the world	3%	[ 1 ]
The world is worsened by these forces	34%	[ 12 ]
Nationalism gets in the way of AGism	3%	[ 1 ]
These things depend upon context	29%	[ 10 ]
Let me see the results	3%	[ 1 ]

Total votes : 35

phil777
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02 Jul 2009, 11:08 am

If the awesome AG had foreseen this, he would have split the options of answers to "one is bad the other isn't" as well. <.< Which i think i saw once or twice here.

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03 Jul 2009, 2:35 pm

To me they seem to be the same thing. Nationalism is the word for when you want to make it look bad, and patriotism when you want it to look good.

I think nationalism and patriotism probably aren't good for the world, but they are human qualities that cannot be lost.

Awesomelyglorious
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03 Jul 2009, 4:03 pm

phil777 wrote:

If the awesome AG had foreseen this, he would have split the options of answers to "one is bad the other isn't" as well. <.< Which i think i saw once or twice here.

I agree with silverpikman's view of the terms. They end up being similar enough that I don't see a reason to draw a distinction between the two. I know that others do make that distinction, but let's just look at the definitions of the words:

pa-tri-ot-ism (patre--tizm)n. Love of and devotion to one's country.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

na-tion-al-ism (nash-n-lizm, nashn-)n. 1. Devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

These definitions are essentially the same. It is true that nationalism has additional definitions, but they don't usually go together as well with the term patriotism.

MattShizzle
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03 Jul 2009, 4:05 pm

Patriotism tends to be more about liking your country and being proud of it - Nationalism is more about thinking it is better than any other country.

Orwell
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03 Jul 2009, 6:09 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Well, the issue is that "culture" and "nation" are not exactly equivalent to "country." The US in particular has incorporated elements of a variety of cultures, and it is not really a nation-state in the traditional sense, given the level of ethnic diversity. Because of this, in the US at least we can have a clear distinction between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism includes connotations of cultural or racial supremacism, whereas patriotism does not.

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xenon13
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03 Jul 2009, 6:21 pm

Patriotism comes from patrie which is fatherland... Immigrants cannot consider America to be their fatherland so it's not patriotism from them. Patriotism is fatherlandism...

Henriksson
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03 Jul 2009, 6:36 pm

xenon13 wrote:

Patriotism comes from patrie which is fatherland... Immigrants cannot consider America to be their fatherland so it's not patriotism from them. Patriotism is fatherlandism...

I think you could agree that the meaning of words change over time, no matter what the etymology is...

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Awesomelyglorious
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03 Jul 2009, 7:08 pm

Orwell wrote:

They are the same enough.

Nation: na-tion (nashn)n. 1. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country. 2. The government of a sovereign state. 3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

The US is a nation, ergo nationalism is a valid feeling towards it.

As for culture, have you either ignored or forgotten my position on multiculturalism? The US is a very distinct culture, how could it not be given the statements such as "land of the free, home of the brave". The high value of freedom is a cultural trait, and the supposed high value of bravery is another cultural trait.

In any case, I don't think the ethnicity is really a massive factor in this either, particularly given that the majority grouping in the US is made up of WASPs and that group is also the most nationalistic as well.

I don't think that connotations really matter enough to be important, nor do I think arguments about the exact nature of the US are really important enough to be meaningful. There aren't enough major homogeneous nations today, but I wouldn't say that people in these nations cannot be nationalists.

sartresue
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03 Jul 2009, 9:04 pm

Patriotic love topic

The love of one's country...But one must also remember that love must not be blind.

This love must evolve so that it does not stagnate, and that healthy criticism of the country ensures its survival and healthy growth.

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Sand
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03 Jul 2009, 10:46 pm

A country is all sorts of things. It is the land itself, it is the politics, it is the culture, it is the individual people who live there with various cultures, it is the history and hopes for the basic principles. It is possible to love some part and not others.

Henriksson
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03 Jul 2009, 10:50 pm

Sand wrote:

People as individuals are on average pretty nice people. Now, add these people together, as a nation, and you get a damn monster.

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pakled
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03 Jul 2009, 11:19 pm

a good thing, in moderation. If you don't identify with your country, how would you care enough to make it better?

Orwell
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04 Jul 2009, 12:08 am

pakled wrote:

a good thing, in moderation. If you don't identify with your country, how would you care enough to make it better?

Simple enough: I gotta live somewhere, and it is to my benefit to work at making my home better. I don't have to join up in a jingoistic cult to recognize this fact.

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Jul 2009, 12:59 am

Orwell wrote:

Simple enough: I gotta live somewhere, and it is to my benefit to work at making my home better. I don't have to join up in a jingoistic cult to recognize this fact.

No Orwell, you gotta join the jingoistic cult. In any case, I don't think you are providing much of an argument. Your home is literally your home if not your neighborhood. The lines you draw on the matter seem arbitrary, why not just claim to be an internationalist, and say "it is to my benefit to work at making my home(Earth) better"? Why not just be an egoist and say "it is to my benefit to work at making my home(literally your housing accommodations) better"?

Orwell
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04 Jul 2009, 10:00 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Well, I would also lean towards internationalism, so yes, I would want to work at making life better for everyone. The reason I would focus more on my own country is because there are legal boundaries drawn in such a manner that somewhat tie me to whatever country I live in.

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Awesomelyglorious
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04 Jul 2009, 11:03 am

Orwell wrote:

But what can you do for your nation that is different than your neighborhood or world, and that still actually improves your life? I mean, improvements to your life would likely be negligible unless it was the same general area that you lived in for whatever you did, and improvements to the world would likely be much smaller unless they are done to poorer nations rather than helping your very rich one.

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