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John_Browning
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22 Oct 2009, 1:07 am

Fuzzy wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
^
Creationists tend to be fundamentalists, but what does creationism or fundamentalism have to do with chimps doing good deeds?


A fundamentalist suggests, rather strongly, that moral behaviour is not possible without believe and guidance from organized religion(and only theirs).

A Christian fundammentalist that really knows the Bible (as opposed to someone who just holds fundamentalist values) would know that anyone can act morally, but that alone does not get you into heaven. I took my night meds and I'm getting really sleepy so I will have to get back to you on a scriptural reference for my claims. If you believe in a works based doctrine like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses do, then having moral apes becomes a problem.


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Orwell
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22 Oct 2009, 1:45 am

Fuzzy wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
^
Creationists tend to be fundamentalists, but what does creationism or fundamentalism have to do with chimps doing good deeds?


A fundamentalist suggests, rather strongly, that moral behaviour is not possible without believe and guidance from organized religion(and only theirs).

Of course, such inconsistencies are easily dispensed with by a failure to understand the concept of moral behavior.

I spent a good portion of my public school years arguing with fundie teachers. It was quite frustrating, because they would ask questions and pose challenges which made no sense whatsoever, demonstrating that they had absolutely no grasp on what was being discussed. I remember, in a debate about morality, some nebulous references to firefighters.


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22 Oct 2009, 1:48 am

John_Browning wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
^
Creationists tend to be fundamentalists, but what does creationism or fundamentalism have to do with chimps doing good deeds?


A fundamentalist suggests, rather strongly, that moral behaviour is not possible without believe and guidance from organized religion(and only theirs).

A Christian fundammentalist that really knows the Bible (as opposed to someone who just holds fundamentalist values) would know that anyone can act morally, but that alone does not get you into heaven. I took my night meds and I'm getting really sleepy so I will have to get back to you on a scriptural reference for my claims. If you believe in a works based doctrine like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses do, then having moral apes becomes a problem.

Salvation through faith is well-established in Protestant theology, and support for it is found all through Paul's writings. However, the doctrine that has been held by some groups (such as the Puritans) is that someone who has been saved through grace will show an outward transformation in the form of good works and moral behavior. There is also the widespread assertion that atheists can not be moral, which certainly seems like a claim that religion is necessary for moral behavior.


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ruveyn
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22 Oct 2009, 9:25 am

Better title: Chumps follow Golden Rule

Strictly speaking a Prudent Predator is most likely to reproduce successfully.

ruveyn



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22 Oct 2009, 11:13 am

ruveyn wrote:
Better title: Chumps follow Golden Rule

Strictly speaking a Prudent Predator is most likely to reproduce successfully.

ruveyn


That's a different topic. This doesn't relate to directly pursuing a mate. The argument is that what we normally call the Golden Rule is a form of reciprocal altruism in humans. Not everything that has been selected via natural selection is directly related to reproduction. Rather, it may indirectly increase the chances of passing on genes. Reciprocal altruism involves helping another individual in the hopes that the favor will be returned in the future. If members of a social group of animals practice reciprocal altruism then this does increase the chances of reproducing successfully because it increases the chances survival of each individual and thus the life expectancy. The longer the life expectancy of an individual the longer it has to find a mate. You can't reproduce successfully if you get killed off before finding a mate. By the way, actively pursuing a mate does make one a predator.