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What are Christ's politics?
Christ was apolitical 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
Christ was conservative/right-wing/Republican 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Christ was a Monarchist 17%  17%  [ 4 ]
Christ was theocratic/absolutist/any other related term 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Christ was a left-winger/socialist/liberal 17%  17%  [ 4 ]
Christ was a left libertarian/anarchist 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Christ was a right libertarian/anarcho-capitalist 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Christ was something not on the list/other 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
I dunno/I want to see the results 21%  21%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 24

ruveyn
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29 Oct 2009, 8:48 am

There is no hard evidence that the Jesus Christ of the Gospels ever existed.

ruveyn



ed
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29 Oct 2009, 8:56 am

ruveyn wrote:
There is no hard evidence that the Jesus Christ of the Gospels ever existed.

ruveyn


There is even less evidence that Jesus was "the Christ" :lol:



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29 Oct 2009, 8:57 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Given he was the Son of God, he was theocratic.


Do you present that as a personal opinion, or do you have factual evidence? To the best of my knowledge, he never attempted to govern anyone himself, and neither did he ever suggest any other form of government be established within his Father's monarchy.

zer0netgain wrote:
The issue is that Jesus' key message to the [religious rulers of the day] was, "You're doing it all wrong!"


Not so. He told them they had a different father, and he taught those who would listen to only serve his, not them.

ruveyn wrote:
There is no hard evidence that the Jesus Christ of the Gospels ever existed.


Certainly not as Christianity presents one, at least.


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ruveyn
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29 Oct 2009, 8:58 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Given he was the Son of God, he was theocratic.



How can a non-material spook have a physical son? And with a virgin, yet.

Virgin human females do not bear sons.

ruveyn



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29 Oct 2009, 9:07 am

ruveyn wrote:
There is no hard evidence that the Jesus Christ of the Gospels ever existed.

ruveyn

Well, he doesn't have to exist to evaluate what would seem to be his politics based upon ideas attributed to him. Does Mr. Burns from the Simpsons need to exist to evaluate him politically? No, not at all, so why not take Jesus in a similar manner?



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29 Oct 2009, 9:08 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Anyone who thinks he was a socialist revolutionary think again "render unto Caesar ...." dead give away that he was far from a revolutionary

Well, honestly I don't think Jesus was an "overthrow the government" revolutionary, but that does not mean that he could not have opinions on government that could have some revolutionary implications. After all, even you have to admit that one can be strongly left-wing, want a strongly left-wing notion of society, and still be more pacifistic in doing this.



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29 Oct 2009, 9:50 am

I think Jesus was a left-libertarian/anarchist.

1) I don't think calling Jesus a monarchist is appropriate.

Mat 17:25-26 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?" (26) And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.

This verse seems to show that Jesus considered monarchist tax laws to be somewhat unjust.

2) I do think it is appropriate to say the Jesus was anti-government to some extent though.

Luk 4:5-8 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, (6) and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. (7) If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours." (8) And Jesus answered him, "It is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"

As in this verse Jesus is tempted by all the offer of the governments in the world, and he rejects them, which says two things: 1) he isn't accepting the governments meaning that he isn't accepting government as his own(which favors an apolitical interpretation) and 2) the governments of the world are owned by the devil, Christ's enemy.

3) Not only that, but Christ and his disciples seemed to dislike the idea of a court settling cases, preferring to handle those themselves.

Luk 12:57-59 "And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? (58) As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. (59) I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny."

Mat 5:38-41 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' (39) But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (40) And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. (41) And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

1Co 6:1-7 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? (2) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? (3) Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (4) So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? (5) I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, (6) but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? (7) To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?

and frankly, most of the commands in the NT are not commands to be implemented by a government, but rather commands for the disciples of Christ to follow, which causes me to question the extent to which one can call Christ "socially conservative" as if this applies to a government. I mean, one can say that there is social stricture, but I am not sure an official apparatus is what is desired.

4) Christ and his disciples were willing to reject some of the pre-existing hierarchy to favor what is ultimately good.

Including family.
Mat 10:34-37 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (35) For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. (36) And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. (37) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Including elements of social class, with some questions about the morality of being very wealthy
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mat 19:23-24 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. (24) Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Finally, given the previously mentioned questioning of the morality of wealth and other verses, which I will place, Christ seemed somewhat big into equality/giving/helping the poor/etc.

Luk 12:33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

Mat 22:39 You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (a claim throughout, even cited by Paul as fulfilling all moral claims Gal 5:14, Romans 13:9-10)

Act 2:44-45 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. (45) And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Mat 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (35) For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, (36) I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' (37) Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? (38) And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? (39) And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' (40) And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'


Now, I will admit that this theory doesn't perfectly fit all facts. For example, Paul didn't contest slavery but rather accepted it on the grounds that "masters be nice". Also, for the issues of submitting to the state, I could make the argument that Jesus was trying to accomplish a political end through non-political means as there is nothing in scripture about contesting who is actually in power, only in trying to change the workings of the social structure, while still trying to respect all people, but this seems to be a hard sell in some ways. Certainly some might say that Christ tells people to honor their parents, which I'd say reconciles in favor of rejecting their authority, but others might contest that. However, I think this rough sketch really does fit the facts to a good extent, particularly since "left libertarian" likely didn't exist to a great extent as a formed philosophy at the time. Also, I do reject to some extent the degree to which Paul may have disagreed with Jesus, as I don't think the difference is fundamental.



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30 Oct 2009, 5:10 am

ruveyn wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Given he was the Son of God, he was theocratic.



How can a non-material spook have a physical son? And with a virgin, yet.

Virgin human females do not bear sons.

ruveyn


Hey now. It is entirely possible for a virginal human female to conceive. Penetration is not needed, nor is a broken hymen. It is, however, exceedingly unlikely!


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ed
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30 Oct 2009, 7:06 am

If there were a god, I'm sure he could impregnate someone without having sex.



iamnotaparakeet
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30 Oct 2009, 7:09 am

ed wrote:
If there were a god, I'm sure he could impregnate someone without having sex.


Yes. Sort of like omnipotence including the ability to create matter and energy from nothing.



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30 Oct 2009, 8:06 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I don't think calling Jesus a monarchist is appropriate.


Maybe that is why noone has done so?!

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Mat 17:25-26 ...
"What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?" (26) And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free."

This verse seems to show that Jesus considered monarchist tax laws to be somewhat unjust.


No, it says the sons of the monarch are free.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Luk 4:5-8 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, (6) and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. (7) If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours." (8) And Jesus answered him, "It is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"
...
1) he isn't accepting the governments meaning that he isn't accepting government as his own(which favors an apolitical interpretation) and 2) the governments of the world are owned by the devil, Christ's enemy.


As an heir of all power and authority, he is simply thumbing his nose as such a delusional offer!

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Not only that, but Christ and his disciples seemed to dislike the idea of a court settling cases, preferring to handle those themselves.


It is not about "preferring" one system over the other. It is a simple matter of not in any way ever needing to even consider the other.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Christ and his disciples were willing to reject some of the pre-existing hierarchy to favor what is ultimately good.


No, they were holding onto what is timeless and rejecting the establishments of men.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Now, I will admit that this theory doesn't perfectly fit all facts. For example, Paul didn't contest slavery but rather accepted it ...


No, he simply said the sons of the monarch are nevertheless free.

I hope my comments here are not found personally offensive, Awesomelyglorious. Overall, I am only meaning to try to present Yahuah's "eternal monarcy" as a great place to be even while men foolishly attempt to deny it, slander it, ignore it, improve upon it or even bring it down altogether.


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30 Oct 2009, 8:46 am

Jesus definitely was a liberal... he stressed that we are our brother's keeper, and that is the exact opposite of the Republican way of looking at things.


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30 Oct 2009, 8:55 am

ed wrote:
Jesus definitely was a liberal...


----------
Liberal, noun, 1820 (Merriam-Webster Online)
a person who is liberal: as one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways
----------

That would seem to me to fit the Christian "Jesus", but definitely not a Torah-observant son of The Living Elohim!


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30 Oct 2009, 9:11 am

leejosepho wrote:
ed wrote:
Jesus definitely was a liberal...


----------
Liberal, noun, 1820 (Merriam-Webster Online)
a person who is liberal: as one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways
----------

That would seem to me to fit the Christian "Jesus", but definitely not a Torah-observant son of The Living Elohim!


Well, that's one of the definitions they give... here is the entire entry:

Merriam-Webster Online wrote:
Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: \ˈli-b(ə-)rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
Date: 14th century
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : ample, full
3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4 : not literal or strict : loose <a liberal translation>
5 : broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
— lib·er·al·ly \-b(ə-)rə-lē\ adverb
— lib·er·al·ness noun
synonyms liberal, generous, bountiful, munificent mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. liberal suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given <a teacher liberal with her praise>. generous stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift <a generous offer of help>. bountiful suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing <children spoiled by bountiful presents>. munificent suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes <a munificent foundation grant>.


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leejosepho
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30 Oct 2009, 9:51 am

ed wrote:
Well, that's one of the definitions they give...


That is the definition they give for the word as you had used it, as a noun.

The thing that kept me in a state of confusion about all of this for so many years was the traditional (handed-down) practice of looking at philosophy and religion to try to figure out a workable politic for mankind. And having been raised to be yet another Christian presuming to try to change the world, extrapolations from Scripture were a large part of all of that.

I pretty much "grew up" in my father's RV factory. I had the run of the place and never really had a specific job assignment, yet I never even thought of questioning my father's authority or why I was there or what needed to be done or his ways and means for anything and everything either in, on, or anywhere around that "universe".

I have somehow ended up over here on the wrong planet -- no complaint! -- but that changes nothing. I still know who has established my goings, and I still know He rightly provides for all of His children ... and I have yet to see any government or institution of man that really does much more than try to tickle my ear and sucker me along to wherever else I have since learned does not even really exist to any good purpose!


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30 Oct 2009, 8:33 pm

Jesus built my hotrod. I dont know what that means pertaining to his politics, but the man certainly understands the need for speed.


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