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Now you are talking out of your ass, Nutrition and Herbal Medicine are far from scams, the efficacy of many of the herbal compounds and nutritional supplements have been well researched. Yes there are some herbalists and nutritionists who make ridiculous unfounded claims, but that behavior hardly proves the majority are practicing quackery.

Last edited by DentArthurDent on 04 Jul 2010, 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This should be amusing.

Unlike homeopathy/iris analysis/rayid/reflexology/bowen/flower essences/feng shui etc etc. there is a fair degree of scientific data supporting the use of nutritional and herbal remedies. I am fully of the opinion that far more research needs to be carried out, especially into the use of less well known herbal compounds. As it is, in Australia herbal tinctures are produced in standardized form, i.e each bottle has the same amount of active ingredient, this is a good start but more regulation and research is needed.

There are cases on record of skilled sphincter controllers who have managed to fart melodies but none that I have seen mentioned claims to be able to hold a coherent conversation. And, of course, embarrassing accidents can occur.

Far too much of the field is filled with mumbo-jumbo New Age BS. "Herbal medicine" is in large part a scam targeting the same rich morons who insist on only buying "organic" produce and reject GMO crops. That some herbal compounds can be medicinally useful is not disputed, but that is something for pharmacologists to research and develop a standardized method of producing the active compounds desired.

well, I think that nutritional or herbal remedies could help ease symptoms, but cannot treat infections, I don't know how is your stand on antiobiotics but I know that, usually, people who advocate for alternative medicine tend to reject antibiotics and vaccines, which is Dangerous.

And well, I suppose I don't need Orwell's expertise to realise that given bacterial adaptation, alternative medicine don't seem to work on infections.

QFT a thousand times over.

So your level of your argument = typical Big pharma propaganda 101

1. No Naturopath worthy of the title would ever go against a MD's recommendation for vaccination, Homeopaths yes

2. With regard to over prescription/misuse of ABs there have been countless warnings to prescriber's regarding the dangers faced to humanity by this practice. I had the opportunity a few years back to read a 1948 mimms, in which there is a lengthy and unambiguous warning to GP's that the 'present' level of penicillin prescription was leading to resistance. So yes Naturopaths are opposed to the UNNECESSARY/IRRATIONAL prescription of these life saving drugs and they are not alone. Again no reasonable Naturopaths would oppose the use of AB's when their prescription is clearly necessary

3. As I have already stated (here in Australia at least) it is common practice to use standardised tinctures. The days of the hippy trippy Naturopath who swears by the natural order of things over standardisation is finished. That battle, (again at least in Australia) has been won.

4. That Naturopaths need proper qualifications and training is a mute point to this discussion as I could not agree more, again here 'down under' you can no longer get a TGA number (therapeutic goods administration) on the basis of an Advanced Diploma, the minimum is a Bachelor of Applied Health Sciences entailing 4 years of study, requiring several units each of pharmacology, clinical medicine, anatomy + physiology and basic bio chem. Without a TGA# access to professional tinctures and supplements is denied as is membership to professional organisations.

5. " "Herbal medicine" is in large part a scam" How so, I have pages and pages of notes showing the pharmaceutical nature of the constituents of many 'Herbs'. You may argue that the 'synthetic' or dose controlled version is more efficacious, affordable, safer etc, and for sure I will happily down a couple of asprin or be given a shot of morphine before I turn to a tincture of Salix alba or Papaver somniferum, but I certainly would prefer to first try Withania sonifera, Matricaria recutita, or Hummulus lupus for insomnia rather than take the MD favourites nitrazepan, diazapan or pentobarbitol

So come on where is you 'hard ' evidence that Herbal Medicine or Nutritional Medicine is a "Quack Scam". From my experience Naturopaths are screaming for more research.

PRODUCE your evidence, and do not attempt to spew forth garbage from one or two tards who are the equivalent of Behe or Kurt Wise. Instead show contemporary, systemic, quackery from producers and industry organisations in Australia, who are claiming research based evidence for the efficacy of herbal and nutritional medications, or else apologise for your insult.

[putting on doctor hat]

I approach medicine from a patient-centric perspective. The patient, and not the physician, is in charge of the patient's care.

In some cases, I have a very strong opinion about the use of pharmeceuticals, but I cannot force a patient to accept a prescription, except in some particular circumstances where consent is implied, or where the public health risk (for example XDR and MDR Pulmonary Tuberculosis) outweighs the individual liberty of the patient.

In other cases, though, I am quite happy to see a patient explore alternative therapies.

In my jurisdiction, the practice of traditional Chinese medicine is now a licensed profession. While I have a firm belief in the scientific basis of western medicine, I am also keenly aware that the practice of medicine is as much an art as it is a science, and for all my education and knowledge, I do not possess all (or even a small portion of) the answers.

I'm no huge fan of Big Pharma, and I think we need some new regulations to change the way the business is conducted.

That said, despite the real and serious problems that need to be addressed, you can't deny that Big Pharma has saved and improved countless lives. They are not the Great Satan that alternative medicine fruit loops make them out to be.


Naturopaths as well as homeopaths belong to the "alternative medicine" (aka witchcraft and quackery) movement, and yes a good number of them do oppose vaccination. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11587822 I don't know if you can get access to the full paper or not. Also see this for evidence that naturopaths are indeed discouraging parents from vaccinating their children. Also, this paper indicates that the anti-vaccine quackery so many naturopaths espouse is in large part a consequence of their "education" in their professional scam.


You're largely wrong about the attitude of alternative medicine practitioners towards antibiotics; much like Jenny McCarthy claims to only be opposed to "unnecessary/excessive" vaccination. As far as overuse of antibiotics, I think physicians who prescribe antibiotics needlessly at the drop of a hat should forfeit their license.


False. Australia has no state licensing system for naturopaths, allowing the industry to "regulate" itself. Anyone can practice as a naturopath there. Also, this is outdated but it suggests that the "education" received by naturopaths is extremely substandard: http://www.naturowatch.org/hx/australia.html


It's amazing what can be done with 5 minutes and an Internet connection, isn't it? I can dig up more if you want. Naturopathy, "holistic" medicine, and all the rest of the alternative medicine movement is dangerous nonsense.

Not snake grease topic

good post.^^^

I use a combination of natural remedies and traditional medications, and the application depends on what is going on. When my doctor advised me against artificial hormonal treatments for age related symptoms that certain women get, I found a really good natural substitute (along with a better diet and exercise) and I am happy with the results. It works for me, and it is also an individual decision.

There is no question as to the necessity of regular vaccinations, and if I should require antibiotics, then so be it.

If Mr. Dent finds his naturopathic remedies to work for him, then he is the better for it.

But the patient does not have the expertise to know what an appropriate treatment should be. If they did, they would never have need to seek out your services in the first place.


Of course you do not. Neither do I. Neither even does the cumulative scientific knowledge of all mankind. But science sure beats the hell out of superstition, and trusting superstition over science gets people killed.

You have one of those?

Unlike you I am not making any grand assumptions, of course I damn well dont deny the massive advances that pharmaceutical companies have made





What is false, that standardised products are the norm? well sorry but they are. Anyone can call themselves a herbalist, nutriitionist ect without any formal qualifications and this is plainly wrong. However you can only get proffesional products, industry registration, insurance etc if you have a TGA number. As I have already pointed out to get a TGA number you must now have a Bachelor of Applied health sciences



That there are elements of Naturopathy that are without scientific foundation is not in dispute, to be honest when I talk of Naturopathy I am more thinking of combined Herbal and Nutritional Medicine both of which you have claimed to be quack scams which they clearly are not. That some Naturopaths still use Homeopathy, Iridology, Mineral therapy etc is a valid point, but to label ALL as frutiloops is WRONG. To say that all alternative medicine is dangerous nonsense is also patently WRONG. There has been a great deal of research into herbal and nutritional medicine so to say that it is all quackery is dumb.

Yes I will fervently agree with you that the training needs to be improved and the falsifiable modalities removed, but for you to say that all practitioners are quacks is an insult to the many (I believe the majority) of Herbalists and Nutritionists who take a very scientific approach to their profession.

You are guilty of tarring everyone with the same brush, pretty much akin to saying all people who believe in god believe in the nonsense of biblical creation.

I dispute whether even this is true, but for sake of argument I'll grant it. Tell me how the typical patient is to discern between the scammers and the "real" naturopaths, and whether you really think naturopathy is a viable alternative to real, science-based medicine.


It is dangerous nonsense, because the alternative medicine movement discourages people from seeking medical attention from actual licensed professionals when they truly need it. People die because of this stuff, Dent. That's not acceptable. That's not a valid alternate method. That is quackery.


Bah. They don't know any science. If they did they would be real doctors, either physicians or researchers.


I am guilty of opposing needless death, suffering, and wasted money.

For the sake of which argument, that Herbal and Nutritional Medicine have a grounding in scientific research? You doubt that this is true? then you are being a fool. Clinical Nutrition is based upon research or are you going to tell me that Vitamins, Amino Acids, Minerals etc are quack inventions and their effect upon the human body negligible? The Recommended Daily Intake of these substances is very questionable as they are based upon an A typical person that does not exist and do not take into account the effects on the body of stress, ill health, environmental factors etc that may increase the nutrient requirements of the individual. The pharmaceutical benefit of above RDI doses of nutritional elements is well understood.That some people take exorbitant amounts of Vitamins and Minerals in the form of over the counter or super market shelf preparations is beside the point, I have never been an advocate of self medication. Herbal medicine is more based upon centuries of anecdotal evidence that is now slowly, gradually being backed up by research, if you deny this research you are again showing your ignorance of the subject.

The answer to weed out the poorly trained and quack Naturopaths is reasonably simple, increase the level of training and bring the pass rates more into line with conventional universities, ie tighter controls. At the moment the prerequisite for entrance to one of these courses is money in the bank, nothing wrong with this in our society, but the situation makes it difficult for the colleges to have a high failure rate as this effects income. Where are modality is falsifiable or without a scientific base it should not form part of the curriculum eg Homeopathy, Flower Essences, and the ridiculous means of diagnosis Iridology. Even better, but probably not practical, would be for the patient to take their prescription to a Pharmacist to prepare.

As to Naturopathy being a viable alternative to conventional medicine, it depends on what you mean by that. Do I think I should or could replace western medicine of course not, do I think the two should work together in a complementary manner absolutely yes. Again you show your ignorance of the subject with statements like "real, science-based medicine". Herbal Medicine is real medicine, the constituents of many medications have proven Pharmaceutical benefits, and you wont find any argument form me for the need to research and prove the pharmaceutical benefits of all preparations




Firstly what do you mean by alternative medicine, secondly although I will agree that the level of training does need to be improved Naturopaths (at least here in Australia) are 'actual licensed professionals'. Yes you can in theory practice without any training or accreditation but in reality this is next to impossible.

Over 4 years it was drummed into me through units of study like Clinical Medicine, Ethics, Anatomy and Physiology, Bio Chemistry, that our role was one of supporting the patient and working collaboratively with their MD, and under absolutely NO circumstances advise the patient cease taking prescribed medication without the agreement of the prescribing MD, now you can claim that this is false, that you claim this does not change the facts; that IS the way I was trained. The Purpose of 4 years of Clinical medicine was failry simple
1. It enables the practitioner to recognise and understand disease states that require conventional intervention
2. In cases where patients with these diseases come to a naturopath the practitioner knows the limits of their ability to help and can also hold a peer dialogue with the MD

'People Die' this has to be one of the worst strawmen I have yet seen. Firstly what percentage of patients visiting an accredited naturopath actually die as a result of advice obtained, yes their have been some cases, which we all know about because at first sniff of a story the mass media jumps on these occurrence's like a pack of hounds, but really your statement is one of exquisite hyperbole. Then by association 'people die' infers the opposite is true that conventional western medical practitioners and medicine never get it wrong, which is an absurd inference



You are guilty of intellectual snobbery. They dont want to be 'real doctors' in fact there were two 'real doctors' on my course, but mainly it appeared to be mostly made up of people disillusioned with conventional western medicine who were trying to find a solution to their ailments.

Opposing ''needless death and suffering'' you really are myopic and sensationalist.

That line invites a whole thread dedicated to the needless death and suffering caused by over zealous surgeons, corrupt pharmaceutical companies, poorly researched drug side effects, Drs who evaluate and diagnose and send patients out of their surgeries within 6 minutes. Or if you really want to discuss pain, suffering and death lets talk about the global implications of this 6 minute practice whereby MDs not taking the time to properly evaluate their patients, not taking the time to properly inform their patients, not bothering to discuss the inability of a quick fix with their patients, and ignoring all the warnings, have managed in the course of less than 70 years to bring the world to the brink of no longer having effective Antibiotics. That wondrous discovery that led to the mass reduction of death and suffering, virtually blown because your 'real accredited Dr's' systemically misused them, prescribing almost as if they were lollies with which to quieten their patients, or what should have been a criminal offense prescribing them to combat viruses. Guess what your 'real accredited Dr's' are STILL DOING IT albeit with a little less vigor.

And yet you have the temerity to abuse Naturopaths for their caution regarding the use of Antibiotics.

Neither side of the debate has the whole answer, it is not my intention to demonise conventional western medicine, but I do see major issues in the paradigm and unlike you I am not so naive to think that it is the only solution when I get sick.

There should not be 'sides' to this, the two paradigms can and should work collaboratively.