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LKL
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19 Oct 2010, 3:14 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.


In other words, a sane balance between the two, without name-calling? Yeah.
Even I'm too capitalist to want government job placement for everybody, but these days just saying that we should have a modicum of regulations to keep megacorporations from running rampant gets one called a socialist and/or a communist.

I'd love to see free education, and free trade-training to boot. The problem with that is that it would wipe out the lucrative school loans sector of the financial market.



iamnotaparakeet
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19 Oct 2010, 3:21 pm

LKL wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.


In other words, a sane balance between the two, without name-calling? Yeah.
Even I'm too capitalist to want government job placement for everybody, but these days just saying that we should have a modicum of regulations to keep megacorporations from running rampant gets one called a socialist and/or a communist.

I'd love to see free education, and free trade-training to boot. The problem with that is that it would wipe out the lucrative school loans sector of the financial market.


I'm sick of school loans personally. I've estimated by the time I finish my Bachelor's degree that I'll be $64,000 in debt for what would, just by purchasing and studying the textbooks on my own, would cost me approximately $2,000 at the most.



ruveyn
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19 Oct 2010, 3:21 pm

LKL wrote:

I'd love to see free education, and free trade-training to boot. The problem with that is that it would wipe out the lucrative school loans sector of the financial market.


Free? There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch --- Robert Heinlein.

Anything of value that is not given in nature is gotten by someone's labor and is therefor NOT free. It comes about at a cost to someone or another.

ruveyn



visagrunt
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19 Oct 2010, 3:22 pm

It's a pity that more people weren't able to do the federal math.

Part of me would love to see the decentralization proponents get their wish--and then for them to see the full scale of obligations that had suddenly been downloaded onto the states, and the full scale of taxation that would need to go to fund those obligations, and the duplication of bureaucracy that would be required.


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iamnotaparakeet
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19 Oct 2010, 3:47 pm

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:

I'd love to see free education, and free trade-training to boot. The problem with that is that it would wipe out the lucrative school loans sector of the financial market.


Free? There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch --- Robert Heinlein.

Anything of value that is not given in nature is gotten by someone's labor and is therefor NOT free. It comes about at a cost to someone or another.

ruveyn


That's true, nothing is free, however the cost of education, which seems to be an arbitrarily inflated number, need not cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain the same knowledge as could be gotten for the price of a library card, pens, calculator, and notebooks.



marshall
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19 Oct 2010, 4:04 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
That's true, nothing is free, however the cost of education, which seems to be an arbitrarily inflated number, need not cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain the same knowledge as could be gotten for the price of a library card, pens, calculator, and notebooks.

I agree with you there. I think US society places too much importance on formal accreditation for non-technical non-specific-skill oriented learning. I can understand the need to go through formally accredited medical school if one wants to be a doctor, but I don't see why everyone who wants a simple 4-year degree needs to move out of home and pay tens of thousands of dollars each year. I'm not really keen on 4 year colleges as I think there's a lot of pretentious nonsense in it.



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19 Oct 2010, 4:15 pm

marshall wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
That's true, nothing is free, however the cost of education, which seems to be an arbitrarily inflated number, need not cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to obtain the same knowledge as could be gotten for the price of a library card, pens, calculator, and notebooks.


I agree with you there. I think US society places too much importance on formal accreditation for non-technical non-specific-skill oriented learning. I can understand the need to go through formally accredited medical school if one wants to be a doctor, but I don't see why everyone who wants a simple 4-year degree needs to move out of home and pay tens of thousands of dollars each year. I'm not really keen on 4 year colleges as I think there's a lot of pretentious nonsense in it.


I'd go as far to say that the U.S. society has placed so much importance upon formal education systems that it is a highly profitable market for anyone able to open a college and get minimal accreditation. You're right that such professions as medical professions ought to remain formal though, for the primary reason of having supervision as it is then a mortal situation rather than one where it's merely equations on a piece of paper.



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19 Oct 2010, 4:23 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.



socialist!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


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19 Oct 2010, 4:25 pm

waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.



socialist!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Yes, so the heck what?



waltur
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19 Oct 2010, 4:39 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.



socialist!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Yes, so the heck what?


sorry, i thought you'd appreciate that. my humor comes from odd angles.


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iamnotaparakeet
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19 Oct 2010, 5:07 pm

waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.



socialist!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Yes, so the heck what?


sorry, i thought you'd appreciate that. my humor comes from odd angles.


Sorry, I wasn't sure if you were being silly or being mocking. It would probably help if auditory clues were denoted as a form of punctuation, though the multiple exclamation marks may have worked for that if I had paid attention more.



waltur
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19 Oct 2010, 5:22 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
waltur wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
LKL wrote:
Orwell, part of me agrees with you on the double standard, and part of me asks, "what's wrong with being a socialist? If it's the alternative to capitalist anarchy (aka libertarianism), then call me a socialist."


If it were possible to learn from history and alter the form of socialism which Russia had, perhaps with more freedom of choice, permission to own property, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, free trade, etc. but combine that with some other things, like government job placement to ensure everyone who can work has work, free education through post graduate levels, etc., then I think it could work out and be better than either America or the Russia of last century.



socialist!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Yes, so the heck what?


sorry, i thought you'd appreciate that. my humor comes from odd angles.


Sorry, I wasn't sure if you were being silly or being mocking. It would probably help if auditory clues were denoted as a form of punctuation, though the multiple exclamation marks may have worked for that if I had paid attention more.


i assure you, i am much less understandable in person.



LKL
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21 Oct 2010, 3:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:

I'd love to see free education, and free trade-training to boot. The problem with that is that it would wipe out the lucrative school loans sector of the financial market.


Free? There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch --- Robert Heinlein.

Anything of value that is not given in nature is gotten by someone's labor and is therefor NOT free. It comes about at a cost to someone or another.

ruveyn


The people who receive the education go on to higher-paying (and thus higher-taxed) jobs than they would otherwise have, and are also better able to invent new tools or systems. Education has been shown over and over to be the one investment that consistently improves an economy over time.



ruveyn
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21 Oct 2010, 4:14 pm

LKL wrote:

The people who receive the education go on to higher-paying (and thus higher-taxed) jobs than they would otherwise have, and are also better able to invent new tools or systems. Education has been shown over and over to be the one investment that consistently improves an economy over time.


Developing human capital is almost always a good idea. However such an investment however beneficial to society is NOT free. It is a cost to someone somewhere.

Do not confuse a good investment with a free good or service.

ruveyn



LKL
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22 Oct 2010, 12:27 am

Are you trying to imply that I don't know that said education would be paid for by taxes taken out of my own pocket? Because I do. And I think that most of the people who advocate for social programs also know that.



ruveyn
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22 Oct 2010, 5:48 am

LKL wrote:
Are you trying to imply that I don't know that said education would be paid for by taxes taken out of my own pocket? Because I do. And I think that most of the people who advocate for social programs also know that.


And what about people who don't care about education, especially education for others? Do we take their money by force anyway?

ruveyn